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The Truth About DragonLasers

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The Truth About DragonLasers

(Please do not respond in this thread unless you have read this in its entirety)


Sorry guys. I hate to stir up any more trouble here, but this has gone on far too long. Over and over I see DragonLasers recommendations here - in fact LPF came about primarily because of DL. When dragonlasers first came about I was told their power ratings were 60 second averages, and it was then I knew they were full of it.

Why? Well first off lets cover some basic facts of these CNI black/gold lasers: CNI themselves only offer up to 80mW versions. However these lasers usually perform above that spec and its not uncommon to see >100mW average lasers. As you go up and up in power though, the lasers become exponentially more scarce, to the point that true 125mW lasers are practically 'freaks'.



Now as we all know, the urge to get the highest power model is incredibly tempting. The only thing that will make us reconsider is if there's a large price difference to step up a model. So lets consider how three main resellers of CNI black/gold lasers have handled this:

1. Wicked Lasers - They sold the 95mW at ~$370 and 125mW at ~$500. That puts the increase in price per mW at ~2.7%, and yet we still heard reports weekly of WL 125mWs testing in the 105-120mW range or less. I personally had to return 3 WL 125mWs before I got a 4th that was borderline in-spec.

2. Nova Lasers - They sell a 105mW at $209 and 125mW at $329. That puts the increase in price per mW at a HUGE 32.2%. Nonetheless, Nova (a more reputable company than DL or WL) is almost always out of stock of their X125s. Even at that amazing price jump, they still find TRUE 125mWs too rare to meet demand.

3. Dragon Lasers - They sell a "95mW" at $200 and a "125mW" at $330. That puts their increase in price per mW at 25.4% - less that Nova's. And need I remind you? It wasn't too long ago that the price jump was far less than even WLs. However, when is the laser time you saw DL go out of stock on the 125mW? I can't remember a single time!


Now of course, there's some randomness to the whole ordeal of who gets how many 125s, but all of these companies have sold huge numbers of CNI black/golds and statisticians may remember the "law of large numbers". So either DL has been having luck better than winning the lottery for nearly the past year, or... need I say it? They've been scamming a bunch of customers full knowing a minute fraction actually have the equipment to be the wiser.


And just to add: as someone who has bought ~25 of these lasers direct from the manufacturer, I agree with Novas results the most.


NOTE: I'm not saying DL doesn't ever ship true 125mWs - some people here have reported testing Viper 125mWs in spec (just as I've heard multiple mentions of testing Viper 125mWs underspec) - I'm just saying they can't possibly be doing it enough of the time to escape my SCAMMER BLACKLIST.



So there ya go. Now I have a post to refer back too next time I see a DL recommendation. I realize nothing I say here is absolute, but I encourage you to read it, think it over, be honest with yourself, and make up your own mind.
 

Morepower

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Pseudo="LASER POLICE"  :D Which is a good thing for us !!!!

While I have not had any dealings with DL what you are saying, and what I know about how CNI does things, definately makes sense.
 

Hemlock_Mike

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Pseudo ---

Again, we are talking a bit of the "luck of the draw".  My DL95 maxes out at 126 mW and drops to about 115 while aaa cells can hold it.  I got a near new DL125 from this forum and it outputs 125 peak dropping to about 110.  
AAA cells (e2) can hold for a few seconds then the sag hits.  
Overall, I have an average 125 and a HOT 95 i guess.  IR output is minimal.

Mike
 
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Hemlock Mike said:
Pseudo ---

Again, we are talking a bit of the "luck of the draw".  My DL95 maxes out at 126 mW and drops to about 115 while aaa cells can hold it.  I got a near new DL125 from this forum and it outputs 125 peak dropping to about 110.  
AAA cells (e2) can hold for a few seconds then the sag hits.  
Overall, I have an average 125 and a HOT 95 i guess.  IR output is minimal.

Mike
WARNING: Anger follows that I'm not proud of.

Well, I mentioned that in my post and it seems like you got a very good 95.

"Luck of the draw" though? Is it just me or is that not gunna cut it? If I pay for a 125mW laser, I don't want to be entering into a raffle where I have a 1 in 10 chance of getting what I paid for. In my opinion, that is exactly how it works with DL, and, again in my opinion, that is called SCAMMING (aka FRAUD).

Also, I don't see how a 125mW peak that drops down to 110mW on the best batts there are counts as "125mW average over 60 seconds", unless you have a verrry long peak. If you ask me, it DOES sound like you have an average 125 - namely an underpower, underspec, and fraudulently advertised one.

Do you see where I'm coming from here ? :-/ I just don't want to see anyone else scammed because of a reckless recommendation. Much better to look into a less suspicious place like Nova. We don't let WL get away with that crud here, so why do we let DL? (not directed at anyone in particular - it just seems the mentality of this forum as a whole criticizes WL, while applauding DL, for running the exact same scam) Its mind boggling to me. At least I can credit WL with pioneering and continually innovating the scam... DL just stole it and now sit around on their asses.
 

Hemlock_Mike

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Pseudo --

You are correct about this.  I however understand that any 100+ mW powered by AAA's will have a more limited output.  This has been told to everyone many times.  I personally am happy with my little "modules" because I can do the fun things in a couple seconds and get a WOW review.  For those wanting a longer duty cycle -- don't get a AAA powered unit.
We also have to remember that ratings are based on PEAK output -- not average output.

Mike
 

Revolvr

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Suggesting DL is scamming people because they do not run out of stock as often as some other vendors is a bit weak. At best it suggests some risk but it would have to be further backed up with actual power measurements. Having been burned by BFG I am sensitive to this, but OTOH I don't want to flame a company without back-up data.

Couple of concerns on the data:

* WL is in China and Steve as I understand it, is Chinese himself. He has a much better opportunity to work with CNL directly and negotiate better deals. In China, developing personal relationships is absolutely critical to business operations, much more so than in the West. It is very possible DL and NL are getting fewer high powered lasers than WL. Also WL can probably get re-supplied much faster than the others.

* From the CNL web site they sell portable greenies up to 200mW; it isn't limited to 80mW. We don't know the proportions of higher powered lasers each company contracts for.

* We do not know the volume of sales, nor the volume of inventory, nor the rapidity at which the supply chain is replenished. Many other reasons may exist for DL to have more inventory than NL. DL could have a larger demand for the 125mW lasers than NL. They could be lousy at supply-chain management.

* The price per mW difference between DL and NL is negligible. DL, based on the numbers provided, is $2.64 per mW for the 125mW laser. NL is $2.63 per mW for the 125mW. Only a 1 cent difference. The percent difference cited is actually due to the difference at the LOWER mW laser prices, not the higher mW Laser.

* The WL price per mW is $4.00, almost twice what others charge.

* We aren't factoring in shipping charges which could make a significant difference; I haven't looked at this.

So in short, I think it is unfair to categorically state DL is scamming customers on such weak and circumstantial evidence.

But the type of analysis done in the OP is great. We need to keep this up to keep vendors honest and on their toes. It would be great to have a sticky post with actual power measurements from lasers people have purchased from each company.

Cheers,

-- Rev
 
T

timelord

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I only paid $287 with shipping for my 125mw Viper (peaking at 135mw). So are you saying I got ripped off????? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 

Rhith

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As he said before, you can get lucky. Though I have not dealt with Dragon Lasers before, I find it kind of odd how they wouldn't include powers on their boxes (as NL does) if they do test them. Also, they don't replace a laser if it is confiscated! So I don't want to waste $287 because customs got a new laser to play with. I trust Pseudo in entirety, I bought my laser from him so I was able to get power charts and all of that. I know Nova Lasers offers them for $30 extra. But I have not found anywhere that DL may even offer this! Just my few cents. I would rather go with NL which has nothing but an AMAZING reputation.
 

Laq

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I don't agree with pseudo on this topic called: The Truth about Dragonlasers"

This is just your opinion based on sales, and the fact they never ran out of stock.
There is no personal experience with the lasers you bought with them or anything else.

I have a 2 separate laser measuring devices to check the output of my lasers. I got both the 55mW and the 125mW from Dragonlasers, and the both are sold to me as stated on their website. (no scam, no fraud)

my 55mW peaks at 78mW and has a stable average output of 61mW over 30 sec.
the 125mW peaks at 134mW and has a stable average of exactly 126mW over 30 sec.

You can reply to me, that i'm the lucky one around here, winning the DL lottery on lucky lasers, but i don't think that is the case. I indeed only here positive stories on people who bought their lasers at DL. so far only 1 RMA case, that had to be repaired or replaced at the cost of 20 to 30 dollars in shipping.

This is my opinion, and NOT the truth about Dragonlaser, as neither is yours, with you explaination.

Furthermore , i guess you are a guy with alot of laser experience and i will not doubt that. i just think your current post is incorrect and based on rather implications, and pre-jugdements.

well , thats my 2 cents ;)

Cheers !
 
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My $0.02

I haven't owned a dragon or wicked laser. All I have are reports. I do however think that statistics can make or break an argument or position.

I believe that Pseudo is giving us all fair warning that the ODDS are stacked against us in ordering the higher mW lasers and you probably shouldn't get one unless you can verify its output. If you do, don't be angry because you were fooled. Psuedo is telling us now that the statistics don't make sense.

Long story short: If you chosose to bargain hunt for these, you better know how to verify you got the "bargain" you're after.

Many of the people he's referring to about getting preyed upon are NOT laser enthusiasts like us and will never know if it is 60 mW or 125 mW, and may not even care. The question is if it is fair and good business practice to do something wrong and apologize only if you get caught (which is unlikely - how many of US have a calibrated meter to verify the output???)

Most people, even on the forums, rely on the manufacturers rating and NEVER test it.

You can be sure that Dragon Lasers has employees that read the forums and they have a fair idea who they're selling to (there are other MAJOR laser company representatives and owners that frequent this site). Am I surprised that forum members can get freak units so often??? No - they know who you are when you call with your questions - most people know nothing about mW or mRad or divergence or peak vs. stable power etc. They flag you and make sure to send you a laser that is to spec. (I expect that ALL companies have a "hotlist" like that, not just DL)

So, is dragon bad? Not necessarily.

P.S. LAQ - Pseudo has lots of experience with lasers.
 

Revolvr

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Do you really think DL or others are in cahoots with the forum admins, and the forum admins give the laser vendors all of our real names and addresses so they can be sure to sell the good ones to us and the junk to everyone else?

I have some beachfront property in Phoenix for you. At least it might become beachfront property in half a million years because cows fart too much.

There is nothing in the statistic that indicated DL is scamming people. It isn't even a statistic, it's an opinion - just one person thinks they might be chronically out of lasers more than another company, based on a hunch or a very tiny sample. The opposite could be true even - perhaps they received an underpowered batch of lasers from China and are not selling them.

I work with statistics and data every day. Sorry if I'm a bit sensitive to it. Statistics are badly used all the time. Especially in politics. Letting a politician play with statistics is like letting babies play with loaded guns.

I have not bought from any of the company's in this thread, and the only company I have bought from scammed me. So I don't really trust any of them much. But lets not condemn one company unless we have real evidence.

cheers,

-- Rev
 

Revolvr

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I'll add that the only quality/satisfaction statistic we have is in the poll for your most favorite laser company. Dragon Lasers is the second best.

So to cover all bases I added an opposite poll - vote for your least favorite.

-- Rev
 

Hemlock_Mike

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Revolvr --

Remember that 87.973% of all quoted statistics are made up on the spot.

Pseudo has a lot of experience dealing with vendors and he reports as he sees the data.

Mike
 
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Revolvr said:
Do you really think DL or others are in cahoots with the forum admins, and the forum admins give the laser vendors all of our real names and addresses so they can be sure to sell the good ones to us and the junk to everyone else?
Rev,

I never asserted that anyone is in "cahoots" with anyone else. Putting it more plainly, they can TELL if you know about lasers or not. All it takes is 30 sceonds on the phone and you can figure it out.

Odds are REALLY good that if you know something about lasers you'll have access to a meter or know someone who does.

I might buy that "beachfront property in Phoenix" from you if you have a good reputation and I cant verify what you're telling me... ;) (if you don't know where Phoenix is and don't have access to information to provide that info, it is entirely plausible that Phoenix MAY have some beachfront property if you're relying solely on what the agent tells you...)

My point is that if you can't test it you'll never know. If you buy something you can't test, don't be upset if it is underspec and out of warranty by the time you figure it out. :eek:

I'm not really invested or interested in DL, wicked or any of the major CNI vendors anyway. If I were considering buying one from them, I would place a call saying that I intended to test it on my meter and post the results on LPF and CPF.
Do you think I'd get a model that was up to spec???

Steve
 

Revolvr

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Couple comments:

I do not at all doubt Pseudo had a bad experience with DL. I only question the theory that having stock when other's are out of stock means they are chronically scamming people.

Agree it might be a good idea to order by phone, not on the web, and sound knowledgeable about lasers, tell them you will meter it, and also tell them you will be writing a review on the most popular internet laser forum. It might help. Probably worth checking the guarantee to see if they really stand by the power specs.

Most people do not meter their lasers, but we can tell if it is way out of spec. I would expect a 150mW laser to melt through black electrical tape fairly quickly for example. Along that line of thought, we could create a sticky post of common capability vs. power - or basic tests anyone could perform without a meter, such as: A 150mW laser can usually punch through black electrical tape in 10 seconds, for example. A few tests at home should be able to tell you if you're laser is in the ballpark.

The sea level would have to rise about 1100 ft or roughly 300 meters before I can call my property beachfront. Think of it as a great investment.

I am correct in everything I say 98.374% of the time. Although I could be mistaken.

Cheers,

-- Rev
 
T

timelord

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Well I'm a VIP member at dragon lasers so you can order through me if you want too and I'll get you a discount. Not to mention my name carries some weight with the dragon lasers boys ;)
 
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