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Politics and General Debates Thread

RedCowboy

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That " chop, chap....crap " zone in Seattle showed us how fast things go to hell when there's no police, is that what you want the whole country to look like ?

Martin Luther King got it right, he could have called for violence but he knew how that would end.

Imagine a few thousand people wearing body armor ( If you don't own any get some it's not expensive ) and painters filter masks add a pair of high impact safety glasses/goggles all standing in the roads around the police stations in cities where police brutality is an issue and each day the number of cities and number of protesters ( PEACEFUL PROTESTERS ) increases, everyone standing in protest tear gas be dammed and no protester shines a laser unless rubber bullets are fired 1st........this means protesters must police their own just like we do at gun rights marches which I have been in and we dam well don't let anyone get violent, we don't break stuff and we clean up after ourselves.....

Every day more protesters surround more police stations where there's an issue and I bet you in less than a week we will see the reasonable reforms come to the table, but violent protest/mob riots will not win and the worst among us will ramp it up for their own pleasure, I have watched the videos and the piss ant rioters are doomed to failure.

 



Shakenawake

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Ah yes, the CHAZ. The one where fox news got caught photoshopping that armed and armoured guy into the pics. I'm not sure what all went on down there. I know at one point they were watching documentaries. It was doomed to fizzle out and I do hope to learn more of what happened there.

As for MLK, well, he did advocate peaceful protest but here are some quotes from him

“a riot is the language of the unheard”

“Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena, They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking.”

“Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society.”

How well did Kaepernick's peaceful protests work out? He had fox news saying he hated america and even Trump suggested he be let go. Nice double standard they have at fox. If you think America needs to be better but dont fall in line with their views well you're an america hater who should love it or leave it. Meanwhile, trump was allowed to say how bad this country had become but he gets to make it great again rather than love it or leave it. Then he gets to tell non white members of congress who want to improve the country to go back to theirs ( disregarding that all but one were from America)
 

RedCowboy

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“Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.”
Benjamin Franklin


I get it that protest is sometimes needed but looting is not protesting, there is no excuse for looting, flip over some police cars and make some noise but smashing store windows and stealing from innocent merchants is not a winning strategy. Encircling the police stations in mass but peacefully would do more than any amount of looting and if things are really bad and peaceful protest fails then take over the police station, do what must be done......but looting/stealing from the liquor store or shoe store is not protesting, it's just stealing.
 
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Shakenawake

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“Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.”
Benjamin Franklin


I get it that protest is sometimes needed but looting is not protesting, there is no excuse for looting, flip over some police cars and make some noise but smashing store windows and stealing from innocent merchants is not a winning strategy. Encircling the police stations in mass but peacefully would do more than any amount of looting and if things are really bad and peaceful protest fails then take over the police station, do what must be done......but looting/stealing from the liquor store or shoe store is not protesting, it's just stealing.

Ok fair enough. Would you agree that some % of the looters had no investment in the protests but were only taking advantage of the chaos? Thus, their actions have nothing to do with the protests and their actions should not be used as a justification for shutting down protests?
 

RedCowboy

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I'm sure some/many.....most ?..... people only wanted to march and carry signs in peaceful protest and they should be the majority of the people out there and as such they must police their own event or put distance between themselves and the violent rioters, standing around watching the violent persons and spitting on the cop they beat down makes them part of the riot.

I support peoples right to protest and I see cops standing by not interfering with peoples peaceful outcry, but throwing bricks is not peaceful protest and you can't have both a riot and a peaceful protest in the same space, if violence flares up it needs to be stopped quickly, not cheered on and this is why the size of these protests are shrinking, most people don't want to be involved in the violence.....another good rule of thumb is ( daylight hours ) for peaceful outcry, most of the muck makers prefer the cover of darkness until things go full out riot and it's easier to control your event during daytime plus it bypasses the curfew excuse to shut it down.
 
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Shakenawake

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Ok. Is police "standing by not interfering with peoples peaceful outcry" all you have seen? Have you not seen the numerous examples and footage of police shooting peaceful protestors, medics, journalists and news crews, etc? Destroying medical supplies? Do you know about "kettling" where police surround a peaceful protest so they cant escape, then order them to disperse, (which they cant do because they're surrounded) then when they fail to disperse use that as excuse to open fire with the rubber bullets/tear gas etc?

My opinion is that at least part of the reason curfews were instituted was to suppress the protests. I've seen conservatives share memes implying that if people had jobs they wouldnt have time to protest. You know, because they're all lazy leftist communists who just want free handouts and whine like entitled soy boy snowflakes when they dont get their way. I have news for people with that opinion though. Unemployment is skyrocketing and many are without work due to no fault of their own. Furthermore, many who do work do so during the day so if they want to participate in a protest, night time is about their only option. So I dont buy that curfews are entirely to curtail looting/rioting. I consider myself a leftist progressive and I work my ass off and I know many others that are the same.
 

RedCowboy

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It's easy for either side to put the blinders on and fixate on the worst cases, fact is people do peacefully protest, I have seen throngs of people marching and carrying signs with police not interfering beyond roadblocks to direct the march but those don't have to be obeyed when the mass of people is large enough, what brings out the tear gas is when windows get smashed and stores get looted.

If it's that important take the day off from work or take part in a weekend protest or protest at night, but you won't get as much attention at night and if rioting breaks out your protesting is overshadowed which is less likely to happen in daylight.

There are no perfect answers and the cops are not always wrong, cops do good things that we need done, but making excuses for looting won't get what you want done and if you have to work you can support a protest financially, donate money to provide food/refreshments for protesters, there's more than one way to do your part, but breaking stuff and stealing things are not worth while options, actually it's counterproductive, Dr. King knew this so take a lesson from history. :) If all the images on TV are of peaceful protesters being abused you will win more public support and your movement will grow, but looting and pillaging means your movement will fail.
 
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Shakenawake

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"If all the images on TV are of peaceful protesters being abused you will win more public support and your movement will grow"

Now that I agree with and Dr. King probably would too. It's not my movement though

I disagree though that tear gas has only been used when rioting starts. Hell Trump had peaceful protestors tear gassed and removed for his photo op holding a bible. I dont think his rhetoric of the need to "dominate" was helpful. Quite the opposite. I found it funny when he claimed to go to the bunker to inspect it. I actually thought it might be plausible until I heard the audio and then knew he was full of it
 

RedCowboy

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People have to make way for the President, this is nothing new, not at all.

Obama signed a law making it a FELONY to protest within 100 feet of him, you did not have a right to ask him anything you want to. His secret service could have you arrested, fined and imprisoned for more than a YEAR if you asked him something he didn't like of took something you said as a protest.......what kind of tyrannical shit was that ?
There were large groups of people protesting Obama along his Presidential route when he went to most states but after he signed this bill into law people couldn't protest him anymore along his way.

So if Obama wanted to take a photo where people were protesting he could simply have them all arrested and charged if they didn't scatter at the word of him heading that way.

 
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Shakenawake

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Oh I forgot to show you guys the trump coins I bought to sell to my trump supporting coworkers. I spent my whole $1200 trump change check on them and made a couple hundred. I did keep one for myself. They're too funny. Perfect way to commemorate the acceleration of the downfall of the american empire. The missile where trump's dick would be says "freedom is coming"

Screenshot_20200721-225401_Chrome.jpg
 

paul1598419

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Much of the violence was promoted by the right interfering with protesters by breaking windows and hoping that looting would then ensue. White supremacist groups have been interfering with protests and trying to make them seem violent. The New York Times had an article on 6/1/20 about a white supremacist group that called themselves Antifa and called for violence being shut down on Facebook.

Did anyone see the 2nd quarter GDP release yesterday? It dropped a staggering 32.9% (annual), the greatest in history ever! That is ALL on Trump's response to this pandemic. You should look at the graph of quarterly GDPs over history. It jumps out at you, dwarfing the 3.9% drop in 2008. Another 1.5 million people filed for unemployment bringing the total over 45 million, so far.


I just finished reading a Washington Post article about new changes made by Trump's Post Master General that will have an effect on mail in ballots this November. Louis DeJoy, who gave over $2 million to Trump, has removed sorting machines, overtime to postal employees, and mandated that mail be left behind leading to delays of 2 days in many places so far. With far many people voting by mail this year that could disenfranchise many voters in November. Congress is now trying to get this sorted out before the November election.
 
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Razako

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What I'm finding very odd about all this is how detached the stock market has been from our economic reality. The Nasdaq is at record highs, and companies like Apple have seen their stock price double over a year despite mediocre earnings. It's not like people are suddenly buying 2x as many phones and macbooks, how does a mega cap stock double over ONE YEAR? I'm just waiting for the extra unemployment to go away, and I expect we'll see consumption start to drop like a rock.
 

Shakenawake

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What I'm finding very odd about all this is how detached the stock market has been from our economic reality. The Nasdaq is at record highs, and companies like Apple have seen their stock price double over a year despite mediocre earnings. It's not like people are suddenly buying 2x as many phones and macbooks, how does a mega cap stock double over ONE YEAR? I'm just waiting for the extra unemployment to go away, and I expect we'll see consumption start to drop like a rock.
The federal reserve is buying corporate debt. It's too big to fail all over again
 

Alaskan

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Trump 2020! Someday there will be no democratic party, I hope. (of course, someday there will be no earth too, so eventually they will be defeated!)

What would they be replaced with? Hopefully a party which stands for America first. In my view, of course, but the way I see things today, the dems fully deserve to be disbanded, because at the top, they are mostly a bunch of thugs. Reminds me of the CCP with how they have been so cut throat and willing to destroy anything to get their way.

Their motto should be "help us destroy America so we can regain the presidential office". Some of their top leaders are offering to give something for nothing to get it (communism; burning through other peoples money first, then enslaving to keep going), that is exactly how they pulled it off in China and now they have a mafia running the country. Guess how the uprising in China started? Pulling down statues was part of it, taking away what others had earned, especially land, farms etc, and giving it to the poor another. Then once they were in power due to being so popular giving everything away, all of that changed, the people were then eventually forced to serve the communist party, worse off than they were before.
 
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paul1598419

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If you believe all the polls Biden is kicking Trump's ass very badly. Trump has been an incompetent lair since before eeking out his 2016 presidential victory and he has become worse since then. There is an excellent chance Democrats will gain seats in the House and take the Senate too. That's all on Trump.......well, and his republican hacks.
 




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