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Politics and General Debates Thread

Shakenawake

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So does this mean redcowboy, that you are peeved about trump's nearly trillion dollar deficit and the trillions of dollars we spend on counterproductive regime change wars?

I might agree that the social security money was stolen. But to say there are no examples of social programs working is plainly false.

It's true that both parties have been in favor of virtually every war, which is why I dont take the label of Democrat. I am left leaning on virtually every issue, although I am a fairly strong second amendment supporter. I've tried to think about a good solution for these mass shootings, but I cant, and I haven't heard any politician, including Bernie and tulsi propose an idea that I think is great. I fully admit I cringe when I hear most liberals talk about guns, it's pretty clear they aren't totally up to speed on the terms. When liberals say, "you dont need a 100 round drum magazine to hunt" they miss the point. We have guns not just to hunt but to protect ourselves, and not just to protect from robbers and such but also from tyrannical government. Now how likely is that? I dont know. The government has way more powerful weapons that if they ever wanted to use against the American people would make an AR 15 with any capacity mag look like a pea shooter by comparison. On the other hand, look how well small arms are working for the Taliban in Afghanistan. I do know that historically, more people have been killed by tyrannical government than by individual crazed killers. WW2 wasn't that long ago. However, it's also true that guns enabling such easy killing haven't always existed. So I'm not really sure what a good solution is. Then theres the mental health aspect. Many of these shooters are on some kind of psychotropic and obviously one must be unstable to engage in such behavior. But do we really want to go down the road of letting the government determine who is or is not mentally fit to own a firearm? I feel like that would be ripe for abuse even if done with the best of intentions. I'm open to being convinced on the issue.

I feel like commenting on the whole churches and charity thing, but that slips into the religion aspect a bit and, well, I've already had a problem with the religion thread.

I feel the need to agree that trump is racist. As evidence I point to the fact that he was successfully sued for refusing to rent to black people. Then there are all the things he has said that certainly seem to indicate that he is racist. Like telling 4 congresspeople to go back to their countries, never mind the fact that 3 of them ARE from America. Think he would say such a thing about a white congressperson with whom he disagrees? I think not. Then there was the yawn inducing birther thing with Obama. Calling Mexicans rapists and criminals, saying he's sure SOME are good people. Fun fact: immigrants, both legal and illegal, commit crimes at a lower rate than native born Americans. Them theres some cold hard numbers. Then theres also the circumstantial evidence not necessarily indicative of rasicm by trump but supportive of the theory, like the fact that the KKK endorsed him.


Now when it comes to "playing the race card" yes this annoys me too. I hate identity politics when race (or gender) is used, by either party, to deflect genuine criticism or for any other bullshit reason like to say, oh your opinion on issue "x" doesnt matter because you are a white Male with white Male privilege.
 
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RedCowboy

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By " Native born Americans " you mean non Hispanic Blacks and non Hispanic Whites together I assume, well is it racist if I point out any facts either way about the crime stats and differences between those two groups of native born Americans ?

Also do you mean rate or total crime events and are you including naturalized immigrants along with illegal immigrants or am I a racist for even bringing that question up ?

Ok I have been reading stats and there are actually studies that swing either way but lets say for the moment that you are correct, that still does not mean we should allow foreign born persons to break the line and jump our fence or lack of a fence, also it would be good to at least maintain some sort of physical barrier so anyone can know where the line is and that it's not supposed to be crossed, don't you think that's reasonable ?

Also those who break the law should be held accountable and holding them accountable is not racism, that said I know Trump can be rough around the edges and some of his old school thinking can come across as racist but his heart is in the right place and he is a better choice than the radicals currently running against him, seriously the way Obama and previous Presidents addressed illegal immigration is not any softer but I do wish Trump would not insist on talking off the top of his head so much, it's hard for a President even when speaking from a prompter to avoid offending someone most all of the time, but I understand that Trump can cause a cringe with his generalizations, but again he is by far the lesser of the evils.

The mass shootings are a problem I think greatly due to the lack of two parent households and the lack of religion in the upbringing of much of todays youth, I used to say we would be better off without religion and that mankind could do better with rational thought than mystic gobblidy goo but I see how religion provides a counterbalance against government and gives people the strength to fight power that's corrupt because lets face it, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and that's why our system was designed as it was by our forefathers, they understood much of the past failings and the democrat officials love to talk about the rules until they want to bend and change them outright to suit their own agenda......for the children of course.......actually mass shootings are not our biggest problem, not our leading cause of death not even close and people need to see how these bastards stand on the backs of the dead not yet in the ground for politics, the things they say are without limit, without any decency at all yet they will attempt to say that's because ........and then they say anything and everything true or not, truth is all politicians are liars and none are perfect and our divided nation has become extremely partisan, to think people don't die for the money and the power of our elected officials is ridiculous, more people have been drafted into wars and made to fight for so much less than true freedom which is what I see our 1st and 2nd amendment rights as, our true measure of freedom and you better believe those who want to control know it.

I think a real test is to apply the " put yourself in the other persons shoes " test and I do that a lot, I did not think it was right for the Obama administration to tell people in public housing that they can't smoke tobacco even though I hate tobacco and it kills more people than bullets by far, but I still respect the rights of others to make a choice about engaging in something that is legal, and I do respect a woman's right to choose, basically I respect freedom for everyone, not just me when it fits my agenda, but we have to choose between the candidates and none of them are perfect, not even close.

Sorry for the long reply, in short no President has ever been perfect and the job itself draws megalomaniacs and ego monsters, truth is all people carry emotional baggage and Trump is not very good at hiding it but that may actually be a good thing, I prefer someone the public can see through than a slick talking deceiver, also we are all guilty of looking the other way for our party and jumping all over the opposition for the same sins and twisting everything to perceived advantage, our divided nation may not be capable of looking at things without a jaundiced eye in all matters political but lets try, I see the current choice for POTUS in 2020 as less freedom or more and a fighting chance or having to fight for a chance, so if Trump is a racist I don't see that as being important, it's not like Obama wasn't extra sympathetic to Muslims........was what I just said politically correct or racist and will those on team red and blue both answer in opposition 99% of the time if asked ?
Can everyone see how the cry of racism is exploited for control most of the time we hear it today?

Less freedom or more, that's how I see the choice in 2020 and none of them are without racism/bias

--edit--
In response to your 1st 2 lines I understand and I support smaller government, not zero government just smaller and not bigger, it's already plenty big enough, too big to be efficient.
 
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Shakenawake

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Yes I agree with having borders and enforcing them. It's a faux news myth that Democrats are in favor of open borders. One thing I'd like to hear talked about more, or at all, is the reason so many migrants are coming here from central America and the role the US played in that. Stuff like, oh I dont know, our imperialistic economic policies and backing right wing death squads that commit war crimes in the pursuit of overthrowing democratically elected governments in favor of puppet leaders that serve our interests. And then we have the audacity to complain about Russia trying to influence our elections with some bots on Facebook and such. Pretty rich. Not saying we shouldn't be concerned about interference in our elections by foreign entities but maybe we shouldn't be such hypocrites.

As an atheist, I obviously disagree that religion teaches people to be moral or that people are immoral without it. The statistics back me on this. Somewhere between 10 and 25% of the population are non-religious, while less than 1% of the prison population are atheists. But that's a discussion better suited to the religion thread and I'm not really in the mood. An arguement could be made that children are better off with two parents I suppose but I'm not sure to what degree that correlates with mass shootings or crime in general. The whole nature/nurture thing is a whole other rabbit hole.

I'm of the opinion that facts can not be racist in and of themselves. I'm not entirely sure about the figures from earlier, I assume the study included all natural born citizens regardless of race as opposed to migrants both legal and illegal. It's absolutely true that Obama deported many people. I'm no big fan of Obama. He is a corporate Democrat who served the interest of wall street and the military industrial complex, and Saudi Arabia and Israel, just like virtually every president. Because I'm not loyal to a team, but only to truth and justice, I'd like to think I am less susceptible to bias

Are you insinuating that black people commit crime at a higher rate than white people? If that's true, and maybe it is, it's not necessarily racist imo. The question then becomes, why is that the case? We know that there is a high correlation between poverty and crime. There are many Black people living in poverty. Why is this? Are they lazy? Or victims of institutionalized racism throughout history? It will vary by the individual I would think. The more we generalize about groups of people, the more likely we are to be wrong about any one individual. I prefer to see people as a collective of individuals as much as is practical.

Speaking of muslims, when trump did his Muslim ban, its notable that one country not included on the list was Saudi Arabia. How many of the 9/11 highjackers were Saudi? Where does wahhabism come from? Wouldnt it be nice if our leaders were consistent when it comes to being opposed to terror? It's almost like, they need to keep supporting it so we can have an excuse to keep building bombs and spending over half of our annual budget on the military.

Small Gov vs big Gov. Well, it depends on the issue I suppose. What I'm in favor of is efficient government and just government. Government that serves the interests of it's people and protects the environment for future generations. In general I'm in favor of free market but corporations need to be regulated or they will try to get away with all kinds of shenanigans. I prefer to measure wealth in terms of wellbeing, rather than in dollar terms.

If trump had done some of the things he said he would, like "drain the swamp" and stop the stupid wars, I would agree that he has done some very good things. Alas, such is not the case. Rather than draining the swamp, he puts Goldman Sachs exec's and war criminal neocons in charge and continues the wars. He certainly won because people thought he wasn't a politician, would shake things up. 12% of Bernie supporters voted for him over Hillary, so disliked was she (I voted for jill, I reject the notion that the lesser of two evils must be picked as tantamount to emotional blackmail) now however, he is the quintessential establishment politician, towing the line, just like virtually every other president. I'd like to know how many, if any at all, things he wanted to do but the powers that be put him in his place saying, "no no mr president, that's not how things work." I wonder too if Bernie gets elected if the same thing will happen
 
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paul1598419

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This blaming people with mental/emotional problems like schizophrenia is nonsense. Actually, people with these issues are almost never violent, so this is used as a way to deflect the real issue, domestic terrorism. Who are these domestic terrorists? Used to be Americans radicalized by foreign actors, but not so much any longer. It is white nationalists that for a long time had been underground, but now feel perfectly able to foment their hate out in the open. These are extensions of the KKK and other fascist organizations who now manage to do to young, disenfranchised people what ISIS used to do. I was living in Mississippi in 1963, which is an historic time if you wish to do the search. I have known these same white nationalists and have heard their rhetoric often enough to instantly know it when it is professed now.

So, my point is that mental institutions won't do anything against the new domestic terrorists. A large majority of Americans are in favor of universal background checks, and while I don't believe that alone is the answer, it certainly would be a start. Even 84% of republicans favor these, but the gun lobby has republican politicians by the balls.

I am also grateful for Trump as he is the worst thing that could have happened to the republican party and I am looking forward to 2020 because I think there is a good chance that there will be far fewer republicans in office afterward, and that ain't so bad.
 

RedCowboy

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If there are radical domestic terrorist groups as widespread as you say paul then everyone should be prepared, all blacks should be armed and ready to protect their children from these groups, God knows they can't count on the police and non radical whites should be prepared as well because when it comes down to it you can only ever really count on yourself, especially during a time of civil unrest when services are overwhelmed.

I am glad that you are grateful for President Trump, he will do a good job for 4 more years.
 
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mojo_1234

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Guys economy is going down worlwide due to self centralized idiots on power. Same happens here in Germany. Only fools are going to manage this world 😥.... either uneducated or unsuccessful in business
 

paul1598419

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This talking point by the gun lobby would be funny if it weren't so tragic. They want you to believe that only putting more guns in the hands of everyone will you finally be safe, but if you ever look at situations where someone starts shooting random or specific people in public the armed citizenry are the first to run away. It is only the police who are tasked to take these people on who eventually do succeed. Even in states where open carry laws are the least restrictive that armed citizens never take out the assailant. They bolt and hide just like everyone else. Sometimes an armed person will be able to act in their own home, but far more often these guns end up causing a death to a family member than they actually protect against an intruder. These are the actual statistical facts and gun lobby groups who want more arms in public don't understand or care about this problem at all.
 

303mod109

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Yes I agree with having borders and enforcing them. It's a faux news myth that Democrats are in favor of open borders. One thing I'd like to hear talked about more, or at all, is the reason so many migrants are coming here from central America and the role the US played in that. Stuff like, oh I dont know, our imperialistic economic policies and backing right wing death squads that commit war crimes in the pursuit of overthrowing democratically elected governments in favor of puppet leaders that serve our interests. And then we have the audacity to complain about Russia trying to influence our elections with some bots on Facebook and such. Pretty rich. Not saying we shouldn't be concerned about interference in our elections by foreign entities but maybe we shouldn't be such hypocrites.

As an atheist, I obviously disagree that religion teaches people to be moral or that people are immoral without it. The statistics back me on this. Somewhere between 10 and 25% of the population are non-religious, while less than 1% of the prison population are atheists. But that's a discussion better suited to the religion thread and I'm not really in the mood. An arguement could be made that children are better off with two parents I suppose but I'm not sure to what degree that correlates with mass shootings or crime in general. The whole nature/nurture thing is a whole other rabbit hole.

I'm of the opinion that facts can not be racist in and of themselves. I'm not entirely sure about the figures from earlier, I assume the study included all natural born citizens regardless of race as opposed to migrants both legal and illegal. It's absolutely true that Obama deported many people. I'm no big fan of Obama. He is a corporate Democrat who served the interest of wall street and the military industrial complex, and Saudi Arabia and Israel, just like virtually every president. Because I'm not loyal to a team, but only to truth and justice, I'd like to think I am less susceptible to bias

Are you insinuating that black people commit crime at a higher rate than white people? If that's true, and maybe it is, it's not necessarily racist imo. The question then becomes, why is that the case? We know that there is a high correlation between poverty and crime. There are many Black people living in poverty. Why is this? Are they lazy? Or victims of institutionalized racism throughout history? It will vary by the individual I would think. The more we generalize about groups of people, the more likely we are to be wrong about any one individual. I prefer to see people as a collective of individuals as much as is practical.

Speaking of muslims, when trump did his Muslim ban, its notable that one country not included on the list was Saudi Arabia. How many of the 9/11 highjackers were Saudi? Where does wahhabism come from? Wouldnt it be nice if our leaders were consistent when it comes to being opposed to terror? It's almost like, they need to keep supporting it so we can have an excuse to keep building bombs and spending over half of our annual budget on the military.

Small Gov vs big Gov. Well, it depends on the issue I suppose. What I'm in favor of is efficient government and just government. Government that serves the interests of it's people and protects the environment for future generations. In general I'm in favor of free market but corporations need to be regulated or they will try to get away with all kinds of shenanigans. I prefer to measure wealth in terms of wellbeing, rather than in dollar terms.

If trump had done some of the things he said he would, like "drain the swamp" and stop the stupid wars, I would agree that he has done some very good things. Alas, such is not the case. Rather than draining the swamp, he puts Goldman Sachs exec's and war criminal neocons in charge and continues the wars. He certainly won because people thought he wasn't a politician, would shake things up. 12% of Bernie supporters voted for him over Hillary, so disliked was she (I voted for jill, I reject the notion that the lesser of two evils must be picked as tantamount to emotional blackmail) now however, he is the quintessential establishment politician, towing the line, just like virtually every other president. I'd like to know how many, if any at all, things he wanted to do but the powers that be put him in his place saying, "no no mr president, that's not how things work." I wonder too if Bernie gets elected if the same thing will happen
If Bernie gets elected, America is crapped
 

RedCowboy

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This talking point by the gun lobby would be funny if it weren't so tragic. They want you to believe that only putting more guns in the hands of everyone will you finally be safe, but if you ever look at situations where someone starts shooting random or specific people in public the armed citizenry are the first to run away. It is only the police who are tasked to take these people on who eventually do succeed. Even in states where open carry laws are the least restrictive that armed citizens never take out the assailant. They bolt and hide just like everyone else. Sometimes an armed person will be able to act in their own home, but far more often these guns end up causing a death to a family member than they actually protect against an intruder. These are the actual statistical facts and gun lobby groups who want more arms in public don't understand or care about this problem at all.
There you go making shit up again paul.

The armed citizen has saved the day time and time again and people save their own lives daily paul, but you don't see the news making headlines about it but you can read about it if you care to educate yourself, the idea that people would piss their pants and stand shaking or run away and hide while their children and/or loved ones are in harms way if false, many shop owners have in fact put their 1st defensive shot in the floor during a panic moment but they still saved their own lives, the NRA and GOA both list events from local newspapers around the country where the armed citizen preserves life with this God given right that the Constitution demands be respected and not you or your lies will ever make victims out of good people who in fact do rise to the occasion when they must day after day, just because you look into your heart and see a coward does not mean the rest of the world is the same as you.




 
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303mod109

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There you go making shit up again paul.

The armed citizen has saved the day time and time again and people save their own lives daily paul, but you don't see the news making headlines about it but you can read about it if you care to educate yourself, the idea that people would piss their pants and stand shaking or run away and hide while their children and/or loved ones are in harms way if false, many shop owners have in fact put their 1st defensive shot in the floor during a panic moment but they still saved their own lives, the NRA and GOA both list events from local newspapers around the country where the armed citizen preserves life with this God given right that the Constitution demands be respected and not you or your lies will ever make victims out of good people who in fact do rise to the occasion when they must day after day, just because you look into your heart and see a coward does not mean the rest of the world is the same as you.




Good point. Lots of self defense situations never get reported. Even then the media is crap so only death makes headlines.
 

Shakenawake

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I agree that people successfully using guns to defend themselves and others happens more than is reported, but it's also true that stasticically, a gun in the house is more likely to harm someone living there than it is to stop an intruder. Despite the statistics I think people should be able to defend themselves. But it is a true statistic.

If Bernie gets elected, America is crapped
And why is that?
 
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RedCowboy

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You have a better chance of dying from falling down than dying from a gun assault, speaking of odds something the anti rights people like to do is roll suicide stats in with shooting stats which is dishonest, people intentionally killing themselves is not the same as being attacked so when they talk about how many people die from gunshot including in the home that often includes suicide which is not a risk to someone walking down the street or sleeping in their bed at home.



If you listen to Joe Biden all you need to do is stick your shotgun out the window and fire a couple shots into the air, but I highly recommend not listening to Joe Biden.

Speaking of Joe Biden did you hear him say that poor kids are just as talented as white kids..........is he not a racist ?
 
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paul1598419

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If you had read my post you would see it states that people do successfully protect themselves sometimes in their homes. You didn't answer my claim that nobody just carrying a gun ever puts down a mass shooter. Lots of carry people kill other people. Just ask Trayvon Martin's family.

Did you hear Trump claim that the revolutionary forces took the airports? Now that is truly someone who doesn't even listen to himself when he talks. With all the lies that Trump has said over the years and the huge number of conspiracy theories he has pushed, nonsense is becoming the norm for some people, Trump supporters, in America now.
 

Shakenawake

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If you had read my post you would see it states that people do successfully protect themselves sometimes in their homes. You didn't answer my claim that nobody just carrying a gun ever puts down a mass shooter. Lots of carry people kill other people. Just ask Trayvon Martin's family.

Did you hear Trump claim that the revolutionary forces took the airports? Now that is truly someone who doesn't even listen to himself when he talks. With all the lies that Trump has said over the years and the huge number of conspiracy theories he has pushed, nonsense is becoming the norm for some people, Trump supporters, in America now.
I know you weren't asking me, but does Stephen Willeford count? Dont think he was carrying the gun at the time.

I did catch the airports thing. Pretty funny and tragic. I heard he blamed it on the teleprompter. You know, the thing he always gave Obama crap for using. I find it hard to believe. Still not my favorite dumb thing a president has said. My favorite was Bush's freudian slip, the one @ the 52 second mark in this clip

 







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