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RedCowboy

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Donald Trump. Promises made, workers betrayed


https://www.indystar.com/story/news...bs-carrier-what-its-like-there-now/6010437002/

Trump likes to pardon convicted war criminals too, so much for being the "law and order" president. Of course, it's understandable that he doesn't care that they slaughtered civilians and have now effectively gotten away with it, that's what Trump did too, gave himself the ability to have no accountability for it. Remember when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan and did that drone strike that killed civilians and right wing media pretended to give a shit? Yeah, cute huh?


Not to mention using our troops as mercenaries for Saudi arabia, and taking the resources of sovereign nations as if he is entitled to them. Where I come from we call that stealing. If you support trump at this late date, you support evil, simple as that



You need to stop with the absolutes, I can support Trump without being in favor of evil, it's called choosing the lesser of 2 evils.

Obama killed Americans overseas and invaded Syria, Obama sent special forces to kill in the Syrian civil war, fact is the US kills all around the world all the time and we trust it's done for our security.

You think Obama's hands were clean ?
You think Biden isn't dirty as hell ?

What Biden did in Afghanistan is inexcusable.

Democrats have become the party of authoritarian rule, censorship and cancellation.

Who ever we elect in 2024 it can't be Biden because Biden is not competent, Biden is not running jack shit, Biden is a puppet to.......Obama and woke friends ? Wealthy woke oligarchs and corrupt dems ?.....Biden isn't even POTUS right now, he's just a puppet, we must elect anyone else but Biden, we must elect a President, not a puppet.......I't doesn't have to be Trump, but it can't be Biden because he is not able to do anything except what someone/some group is making him do, Biden is not doing what a President is supposed to do, he's not able.
 



Shakenawake

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Yes to me Obama, hillary, Biden and Kamala are evil as well. Trump is certainly not a lesser evil, I have already laid out why. Right wingers participate in cancelation just as often if not more. Both parties engage in censorship.

I did fully support Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan. I don't believe Trump would have ever done it. Pompeo wouldn't let him.

I don't see myself voting for Biden in 2024. His brain as I have said is mostly melted and it'll be even worse by then.

I've always seen voting for the lesser evil as "better vote for us to stab you in the back with a 4" blade or they'll stab you with a 6" one". I think I'd rather vote for vermin Supreme than for Biden or Trump.

I'm fine speaking in absolutes. The right has no trouble doing so to me. Look at the Texas republican party, openly Christian nationalist just like MTG is now, and my representative Lauren Boebert. You can't be openly Christian nationalist and still uphold your oath to defend the constitution. If you hate the constitution, you hate America right? Hence, Republicans hate America, and want to destroy it.

BTW, trumps son literally called for participation in cancel culture by the right, but don't take my word for it


I can cite more examples of trump himself participating in canceling and taking anti free speech positions. He tried to sue Bill Maher for making the joke that trump is the offspring of an orangutan. He suggested 1 year imprisonment for burning the flag which is protected speech, and he tried to cancel that movie "the hunt". What a snowflake. On his "truth social" platform, discussion of Jan 6th is suppressed.

I could go on and on with examples of the right engaging in cancel culture, and engaging in censorship. Both administations have continued trying to prosecute Julian Assange and Edward snowden.
 
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Ears and Eggs

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You need to stop with the absolutes, I can support Trump without being in favor of evil, it's called choosing the lesser of 2 evils.

Couldn't agree more. 99% of the time when I vote these days it's more of a "lesser of evils" type decision and almost never a "I think this candidate is perfect and agree with everything they want to do/have done". I can't remember the last time I was really excited over a single candidate (probably when I was 18/19, more impressionable, voting for the first time, and voted for some ridiculous third party lol) but I have still voted in every election since I have been eligible.
 

RedCowboy

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Yes to me Obama, hillary, Biden and Kamala are evil as well. Trump is certainly not a lesser evil, I have already laid out why. Right wingers participate in cancelation just as often if not more. Both parties engage in censorship.

I did fully support Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan. I don't believe Trump would have ever done it. Pompeo wouldn't let him.

I don't see myself voting for Biden in 2024. His brain as I have said is mostly melted and it'll be even worse by then.

I've always seen voting for the lesser evil as "better vote for us to stab you in the back with a 4" blade or they'll stab you with a 6" one". I think I'd rather vote for vermin Supreme than for Biden or Trump.

I'm fine speaking in absolutes. The right has no trouble doing so to me. Look at the Texas republican party, openly Christian nationalist just like MTG is now, and my representative Lauren Boebert. You can't be openly Christian nationalist and still uphold your oath to defend the constitution. If you hate the constitution, you hate America right? Hence, Republicans hate America, and want to destroy it.

BTW, trumps son literally called for participation in cancel culture by the right, but don't take my word for it


I can cite more examples of trump himself participating in canceling and taking anti free speech positions. He tried to sue Bill Maher for making the joke that trump is the offspring of an orangutan. He suggested 1 year imprisonment for burning the flag which is protected speech, and he tried to cancel that movie "the hunt". What a snowflake. On his "truth social" platform, discussion of Jan 6th is suppressed.

I could go on and on with examples of the right engaging in cancel culture, and engaging in censorship. Both administations have continued trying to prosecute Julian Assange and Edward snowden.

I support all our Bill of Rights including Freedom of Speech, that said for many people who have given their sons and daughters for what that flag represents, it's triggering to see someone burning it, it may be free speech, but it's free speech the same as someone wearing a white bed sheet yelling the n-word in public........why did I just type " n-word " when I am talking about the word " nigger " without even directing that word at anyone or intending to demean anyone's charter ?

Burning our US Flag in public seems like some kind of hate speech, comparable to fighting words, burning our flag in public should at least be punished as " creating a hazardous or offensive condition " if it causes a disruption or in some cases " inciting a riot " if it provokes or results in bloodshed........It's comparable to shouting " FIRE " in a theater.

I think a year in jail is excessive for a 1st offense, maybe a 500.00 fine for a 1st offence, 1000.00 for a 2nd and 1000.00 plus 30 days in jail for a 3rd and judges discretion up to 1000.00 and/or a year in jail for 4th or subsequent.


EDIT: Actually I think a person should be able to burn our flag in public, just like a person should be able to shout racially charged words in public, we should all learn to ignore the A-holes and invalidate their BS by ignoring it while supporting their Freedom to embarrass themselves. That would be the right way, but punishing only one groups offensive speech is worse than punishing everyone's.

Maybe it depends on the context, say burning our flag on the street corner, vs. burning any flag in front of someones house, not marching but directing the burning at one person/one home.

Would you support burning a flag on someones doorstep as free speech or defecating on their doorstep as free speech ?

 
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Ears and Eggs

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Personally I don't think there should be any legal restrictions on either racial slurs or burning flags. Not saying that I think it's okay to do, it certainly makes you a complete douchebag to destroy something that means so much to so many people or to intentionally use words against someone that you know are going to be really hurtful, but being a complete douchebag isn't necessarily, and shouldn't necessarily, be a crime. As a Latino if someone used a slur against me, I'd just mentally write them off as a moron and walk away. I got a pretty thick skin and no way some stupid word is going to get me that upset. Just like we try to do with some idiotic troll on a forum, just ignore that idiot shouting slurs or burning flags, write them off as a moron with nothing better to do and walk away. Like forum trolls, they'll tire of getting no attention.


The problem I have with controlling slurs and flag burning is that I think it puts us on a dangerous path. Who then gets to decide what constitutes a slur, what flags or other items are too "offensive" burn. It leads down a dangerous path. Better if we all just had a little better self control and ignore and walk away from the fools.




EDIT: I think in the more extreme examples there, other laws could be used to stop the act without specific slur/flag burning laws. Burning anything on their property you could stop with current trespassing and vandalism laws. Continuously/repeatedly targeting one specific person with either slurs or burning could always be dealt with by harassment or threat legislation, etc. We can use the current rules to deal with the more extreme example without more specific legislation.
 
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Shakenawake

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Figures you'd get hung up on the flag burning thing, and here I was much more curious on your thoughts about the other stuff.

Look, I don't personally go around burning flags, I think a better symbolic gesture would be to wash one. I do often understand why it is done and think it constitutes free speech, as courts have ruled. Doing it on someone's property or in a way that's dangerous of course changes things.

However, I don't see those who do so as just having nothing but hate for America, so I think veterans getting all bent out of shape is unnecessary. You tell me not to deal in absolutes but it feels like when you take a position against flag burning you are saying I either accept and love America as a whole or reject it wholesale and hate it when clearly there are other options.

I agree ears and eggs, puts us on a dangerous path, which is why I oppose trump for suggesting a year in prison for it. He thinks schools teach our kids to hate America by teaching them about things like slavery, native genocide, systematic racism etc, and he'd clearly prefer education that instills nothing but respect and unquestioning adoration of the nation and fearless leader, not so dissimilar to North Korea.

I am of the opinion that there's always room for improvement, and teaching kids about the countries wrong doing will motivate them to make it a better nation. Totally fine and supportive of kids learning good things about out nation as well like freedom of speech and how rare that is in the world.

Yes redcowboy, it is similar to yelling the n word, freedom of speech MUST include the right to offend, because offense is subjective

Yes ears and eggs there is a range of disagreement that I allow for in candidates I nominally support, but certain actions put them in a category I call "beyond the pale" and I can never support them after that. Deliberately slaughtering civilians and removing your requirement to even just report it, and pardoning convicted war criminals who slaughtered civilians puts one firmly in that category for me, and I'm very sorry that it does not for so many. I can only question the moral character of such individuals for that reason. It's a simple matter of empathy. Would you tolerate your loved ones being killed, and then not even hearing an "ooopsie" but a further "yeah that's right and fuck you"? No, you wouldn't, so why tolerate it from someone else
 
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Shakenawake

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Based. If bolsonaro likes trump I'm sure I'd take issue with much of his policies but can't take much issue with anything here.

BTW, if I can, I'd like to preemptively prevent you from saying Marxists are gun grabbers EVER AGAIN, or that what passes for the left here are all Marxists. Here's a quote
"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary"
Care to guess who said that? Why it was none other than Karl Marx. Pretty cool huh?
 

RedCowboy

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What do you know about Friedrich Nietzsche

I know very little, but I just read some of his quotes and I think that many of them are brilliant, I very much like all of these:

“Without music, life would be a mistake.”

“It is not a lack of love, but a lack of friendship that makes unhappy marriages.”

“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.”

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”

“Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.”

“He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”

“In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.”

“I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.”

“The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind.”

“The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.”
 
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Shakenawake

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I am not super super familiar with Nietzsche. All but one of those quotes resonates with me though, so I will say that I think he was brilliant and I like him for the most part.
 

RedCowboy

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Sometimes when fighting a monster, you in fact have to become one yourself to survive........I mean a lion is a beautiful animal, but it has to kill something if it's going to eat.

Also as for the right way there may be no cosmic right or wrong but logically the right way is the way that works the best and there are many factors to determine that, such as best over time, best for the most people, best as to enjoy life, it's still going to involve compromises when theses more than 1 person.

Which one do you most disagree with ?
 

Shakenawake

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This one:

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”

I believe some "ways" are objectively better than others, and while neither of two entities may fully posses the correct or best way, one of them is likely closer to that and we should strive for that and improving towards optimal. Unless I mistake his intent, it sounds like the whole "you have you're opinion/beliefs and I have mine" as if they're both equally valid. I do not believe all opinions and beliefs are equally valid
 

RedCowboy

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Yes I agree with that.

So you think communism is better than capitalism ?

I like parts of communism, but it just doesn't mesh with my strongest belief, Freedom, but Capitalism fits better with Freedom.

However if communism was done right as to empower Freedom, well that's what we have with Capitalism+taxes.....well what were supposed to have.

Human greed is the problem in either system, Greed for money and power/control.

People don't always agree, it's why we have laws, yet someone has to oversee things, we can't function like the borg ( from startrek )
We need to build in accountability for our elected reps, not for the small picky things people disagree about, but for outright theft/corruption.....actually we have recourse, we need a more unified people to get it done.

Americans have better control/influence over government than Russians, our problem is how divided we are and one side overlooks the corruption on their side because they think they will get their agenda advanced, but compared to say....Russia....Vladimir Putin is very wealthy and just look at Ukraine, so much needless death and destruction to suit one man's desires, no the American system is better, but part of our problems are our people, people who vote for short sighted solutions bound to fail.

Religion can be exploited for control, but it also teaches a good basic set of rules and it gives people a life plan, keeps families together and produces better kids who grow up to be better people, religion might be just what we need to help insure there will be 2 parents at home and less acceptance of corruption, it also brings people together and unifies people against corrupt government so we can demand what we want as mostly one voice, not 2 sided totally opposed.

Truth is our corrupt politicians want us divided so they can get away with everything and live above the laws, they all become wealthy and get away with everything.......unless they piss off their own, they their out and fast, like Cuomo.
 
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Shakenawake

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There are elements of communism I like and think should be implemented. Same with capitalism. I take issue with little that you said there, though obviously we have disagreements over certain facts and perspective. When conservatives speak of communism, they do so as if it is a static system incapable of changing or accommodating current needs and new information, or circumstances. This is not true, which means conservatives are arguing against a strawman. This lecture comes to mind. I am sorry it is so long, maybe listen while doing something else:


I gotta get some sleep
 

paul1598419

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In the NY Times today:

The 117th Congress has been the most nondysfunctional one, under Biden, in many years. Even laws that were bipartisan got passed. This Congress has passed bills to build infrastructure, tighten gun safety, expand health care for veterans, protect victims of sexual misconduct, overhauled the Postal Service, helped Ukraine and responded to the growing Chinese aggression.

Democrats didn't allow a complete veto by Republicans and passed the most significant response to climate change in history. They also increased access to medical care for lower and middle income Americans and enacted programs to soften the blow from the pandemic. Also, they passed an investment in semiconductors and got corporations that don't pay any federal income tax to now pay 15%.

Congress is still too polarized and hasn't figured out how to respond to the growing threats to American democracy. The House is still too Gerrymandered and the Senate has a bias against those living in large states who are Black, Latino, Asian and young.

Chuck Schumer had to hold onto every vote in the Senate. He couldn't lose a single Democratic vote, showing the successes of his predecessor Harry Reid. The House leader, Nancy Pelosi, has managed her caucus for 20 years. ;)
 
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RedCowboy

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They passed a climate boondoggle spending spree under reconciliation which was never intended for this and gave what's essentially ( Mr. not so phony IRS scandals ) Obama's 3rd term an IRS army to go after the opposing party's voters, provoked and fostered political/racial violence/riots, went 3rd world with political persecutions against the opposing party, ran inflation up to all time highs ( and it's not over yet ), caused our current boarder crisis, disgraced our nation and our military, allowed genocide in Ukraine, my God this just goes on and on, Biden is the worst President in US history and even 75% of democrats want him gone, now there's a record.
 




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