Politics and General Debates Thread

[RedCowboy]

Obama used executive privilege to shield himself from accountability when caught for his Fast and Furious gun running scandal so don't try to feed me that Obama was checked out garbage and lets not forget all the " phony scandals " such as using the IRS to target tea party activist.

This impeachment nonsense is based on what someone said they heard someone else say about something and so far the leaked testimony is that someone had concern, there is no proof that Trump did anything illegal but there is proof that he didn't, Ukrainian President Zelensky has said he was not pressured and did not know about any delays in the aid and that carries more weight than some bureaucrats who say they were concerned about the appearance of something without any proof of wrongdoing, because if Zelensky was not pressured and did not know then it didn't happen, they are attempting to find Trump guilty of intent which is ridiculous as Trump was doing his job as he intended to do his job and did, sure the House might make a mockery of the process and actually impeach Trump for perceived intent of some invented thing but don't expect the senate to do anything against Trump on account of that, but do enjoy the show and rant away but I can tell you how it ends, either it falls apart sooner or later or they actually impeach on super thin perceived intent something another and then the senate takes a pizz on it.

As for Fox News they are killing in the market as they should be so of course CNN and MSNBC will hype the tripe for all it's worth, the Trump haters are hungry for hope, clamoring for any thin thread to which they can cling, some are named paul and regurgitate the tripe.

I love this piece of truth: Fox News has always had a bigger audience than MSNBC and CNN, but has been able to hold on to almost all of it in the post-Mueller Report world because Fox didn’t spend two years conning its audience into believing Trump was a Russian spy facing inevitable impeachment.

CNN Loses Nearly 50% of Primetime Audience, MSNBC Down Nearly 30%

Now that their two-year Russia Collusion Hoax has been exposed, CNN and MSNBC are hemorrhaging a massive number of viewers.

www.breitbart.com

 

[paul1598419]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html?wpisrc=nl

In case you can't get this article, Colonel Vindman testified before the House today that he was on the phone call and heard everything Trump said. He also testified that as an official of NSC he was very concerned and went immediately to NSC lawyers to say this quid pro quo was not part of national security and he was very concerned that it would undermine national security. He further said that asking a foreign country to investigate an American was so far out of bounds that it would make any other security problems pale in comparison. He has been an Army officer for 20 years and it highly decorated.

Fox News tried to immediately try to smear him as an immigrant and therefore couldn't be trusted. But, even republicans had to walk that back as it is beyond crazy to say something like this. Republicans have been trying to unmask the whistle blower today disregarding the law that protects their identities at this hearing. We are so far past the whistle blower as the corroboration of all his allegations have been made by at least 5 other officials who have testified under oath.

It is also noteworthy that Colonel Vindman said in his testimony that the transcript of Trump's conversation was incomplete and he tried to get it updated, but was not successful. Trump had also said that there are recordings of Joe Biden that were incriminating and that Burisma was being corrupted by the Biden's. This was not added back to the transcript as well as other very incriminating things that Trump said to Zelenskyy.

This article is in the New York Times. Vindman didn't add the "incriminating" part. I added that. Vindman only added that these parts were left out of that transcript. Their relevance was not his statement or testimony. It is further indication that Trump's "perfect" call was not all there.

 

[RedCowboy]

I read that Adam Schiff was coaching witnesses during testimony, this is beyond ridiculous, nothing leaking out of this is trustworthy.

 

[paul1598419]

Reread what I said. It is in the New York Times.

 

[ManCave]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html?wpisrc=nl

In case you can't get this article, Colonel Vindman testified before the House today that he was on the phone call and heard everything Trump said. He also testified that as an official of NSC he was very concerned and went immediately to NSC lawyers to say this quid pro quo was not part of national security and he was very concerned that it would undermine national security. He further said that asking a foreign country to investigate an American was so far out of bounds that it would make any other security problems pale in comparison. He has been an Army officer for 20 years and it highly decorated.

Fox News tried to immediately try to smear him as an immigrant and therefore couldn't be trusted. But, even republicans had to walk that back as it is beyond crazy to say something like this. Republicans have been trying to unmask the whistle blower today disregarding the law that protects their identities at this hearing. We are so far past the whistle blower as the corroboration of all his allegations have been made by at least 5 other officials who have testified under oath.

It is also noteworthy that Colonel Vindman said in his testimony that the transcript of Trump's conversation was incomplete and he tried to get it updated, but was not successful. Trump had also said that there are recordings of Joe Biden that were incriminating and that Burisma was being corrupted by the Biden's. This was not added back to the transcript as well as other very incriminating things that Trump said to Zelenskyy.

This article is in the New York Times. Vindman didn't add the "incriminating" part. I added that. Vindman only added that these parts were left out of that transcript. Their relevance was not his statement or testimony. It is further indication that Trump's "perfect" call was not all there.

To follow up from the videos forum.
‘Personally, I can’t stand Trump, a slime of man that has no place in politics , much less the presidential position he holds (hopefull, not for long)
We are going to the polls here on December the 12th, the third General election in the last 4 years... go figure.
‘Should our own mini Trump win, the U.K. will be turned into Trumplandia. With beautiful deals, and bad guys liberals to beat down to a pulp. Not something I am looking forwards to.

 

[paul1598419]

There is an article in the Washington Post today that shows many videos that Fox News has been using actually came from CNN, but time after time they never credit them for the video. One example was of Joe Biden saying back in 2006 that he was for some walls at the Mexican border. But, Fox neither credited them and once Trump Tweeted the video, they credited Trump for finding it.

@ManCave
Yeah, I watch the BBC America news, so I have been keeping up. Some Brits have been videoed saying they are not planning to vote again. He , Boris, is hilarious to watch, but that is likely because I don't live there.

 

[ManCave]

Oh , I find him funny too, I mean, the man is a clown! .
‘Sadly, people don’t see him for what he really is, and with a small majority wanting Brexit done and the left split between the LibDems and Labou, he has a big chance of winning. That, should it come to pass, won’t be funny anymore.
Ps: apologies for spelling, missing syllables/consonants and the apostrophes at the beginning of paragraphs. I am running ipad os beta and it keeps randomly messing about with text and other commands.

 

[paul1598419]

Yeah, it looks like Bolton will testify, but he wants a subpoena. This is likely to cover him politically. It is like once the dam broke, people lined up to testify. It just took one or two brave national security people to come forward first. Now, Trump can't keep them away. The line runs around the block.

 

[paul1598419]

Kentucky has a new Democrat Governor and Virginia belongs to the Democrats completely, having the Governorship, and both Houses. And all this after Trump made this Kentucky election a mandate on his presidency at a Kentucky rally just before the election. In fact, Democrats have turned over more than 400 seats in state elections since 2018.

Republicans are saying privately that Trump is a drag on their ability to run a cogent message in 2020. That was what I meant when I said that republicans would rue the day Trump won in 2016. We are still a little less than a year away from the 2020 election, but it is not looking good for republicans.

 

[Alaskan]

Yep, this is right on target

 

[paul1598419]

Yep, this is right on target

This is a joke! Trump is without a doubt the most corrupt president we've ever had, taking many millions of dollars from the wealthy and foreign nationals. He is the "deep state" and in the many corroborations of his abuse of power so far in this impeachment inquiry republicans are stumbling over themselves trying to distract from the obvious evidence of this by claiming we need to hear from the "whistle blower" when we are so far past that point to bring that up now is just a total misdirection of what is going on now. Notice how none of them ever try to contradict any of their testimonies, but use talking points that have nothing to do with getting at the truth of what Trump was actually trying to do to the new Ukrainian President in his efforts to use the assistance and a visit to the White House to gain a CNN interview from Zelensky that he was investigating his most probable political rival back in the months leading up to his July phone call. Saying that the money was released without the CNN interview proves only that the money was quickly released two days after the "whistle blower's" complaint became news. This only proves that Trump was caught in the act and saying that the crime wasn't accomplished is not a defense against the crime itself.

It is hilarious to listen to these republicans offer these as a defense. The talking point now is this is all second hand, but we all know first hand knowledge is only a few days away. People who were listening to this phone call have and will testify again to what Trump expected from Zelensky, which was corroborated by the phone call and also made clear to him by Trump's many operatives working closely with the Ukrainians in the months preceding the July phone call. It is a treasure trove of evidence that only continues to build the more people come forward to testify.

Has anyone here watched the live testimony so far? You should as it is explosive and we even learned yesterday that an aid to Taylor listened into a conversation between Trump and Sondland in September of this year where Trump was asking about dirt on his political opponents. That person will testify in a deposition tomorrow and will likely testify in a live hearing after that. It keeps mounting up every day. And republicans still try to distract and misdirect, poorly, as there is no real defense of Trumpland corruption as we see it almost daily.

 

[RedCowboy]

The President sets foreign policy and because Ukraine has a history of corruption including the Biden corruption it's perfectly reasonable for Trump to address this history of corruption when we are giving aid to Ukraine, how could he not and if he didn't then they would complain about that. How dare Trump look into the Biden corruption.......because it's his job and Trump is doing a great job, we have the lowest African American unemployment in history, Trump delivers and people know it.

Fact is President Zelensky flat out said he was not pressured and did not even know of any delay in the aid that Ukraine did in fact receive.

This is manufactured drama by hateful Adam Schiff who is a known liar and who has coached so called witnesses who have provided no actual evidence, the proceedings have been nauseatingly contrived in a blatant attempt to sway the coming election, all they have done is present 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand opinions and hearsay, there is no hope of this farce actually removing Trump from office, this is all political theater and it's a disgusting waste of time and money when there is real work to be done, democrats will regret this atrocious behavior as they attempt to spread lies and hate, you reap what you sow.

p.s. I talk to a lot of African American Wal-Mart shoppers as I go shopping/walking every day and they like it that Trump is working to get a grip on illegal immigration, when I ask what they think about the wall they start talking about what illegals are getting away with and how unfair it is, most won't answer about the wall and when I talk about the economy they can only agree...........many won't vote for Trump but many won't vote against him even though they answer polls as pro dem and polls don't show those numbers, last election was a huge effort for many and it failed, then things got better, how hard will African American people push others to elect Elizabeth Warren.........she's no Obama, Biden I think would have had a better chance with black voters but I don't think he has the mental ability to serve, the more he speaks the worse he looks.

 

[paul1598419]

Yes, the president does set foreign policy, as long as it is within the bounds of what is considered legal in the constitution. It is hilarious to say Trump was concerned about corruption in Ukraine because the word "corruption" or "corrupt" never was used by Trump in his "transcript" of the July 25th phone call. He did, however, reference Joe Biden and his son and Burisma, the company he worked for. He also referenced a long debunked theory of the Ukrainians as interfering in the 2016 election instead of Russia, which was laid out so convincingly for anyone to see in the Mueller report.

Of course Zelensky denied feeling pressured by Trump in his meeting with Trump. You don't complain to the person who is holding you hostage. That would be foolish and would only get him less cooperation than he was already not getting at the time. The facts are there is plenty of evidence that Trump was using the money that Congress had appropriated for their defense in order to get Zelensky to go to CNN and announce opening an investigation into his politic rival. That CNN interview was scheduled, but not held because the money was released before it took place. It was released two days after the "whistle blower's" complaint came to light.

Bribery is not the actual changing hands of money, but is the solicitation of doing something for the money. Saying that Trump was not successful is not exculpatory of bribery. There is so very much evidence of Trump doing exactly what he has been accused of doing it seems, at least to me, that impeachment is a foregone conclusion. But, that is getting way ahead of the process. Just like saying Trump won't be removed from office is getting way out in front of the process. Nobody knows what will happen. I don't even know if articles of impeachment will be brought before the House. You can't know what will happen in the Senate if it gets there for trial.

There is absolutely no evidence that these witnesses have been coached by anyone. And to say blanketly that everyone who does testify has been is beyond irresponsible and totally without evidence showing that any of them have been so coached.

Showing republicans hacks on Fox or any other news organization trying, miserably, to defend the indefensible is meaningless. They are hilarious to watch, however.

 

[RedCowboy]

This impeachment debacle if falling apart and democrats are saying so, keep on spouting the fake medias misrepresentations but it's all nonsense and it's not going to work and this whole Schiff show is likely to cost the democrats votes because nobody likes this ( Prove your innocence ) process that Schiff is attempting to perpetrate, just another blow against the dem agenda which has become vile and vicious breaking with all traditional senses of justice and fair play for all to see.

 

[paul1598419]

IDK. Maybe you didn't watch republicans spend years trying to find a way to get rid of Clinton. Maybe you didn't watch what they did in their public hearings to impeach him ultimately for lying about an affair. They paid a political price for that, but the polls were stacked against them as this was not seen as having anything to do with being president. Now, we have Trump trying to bribe the new Ukrainian president with funds withheld and a meeting in Washington to announce publicly he was opening an investigation into Joe Biden and a debunked conspiracy theory about Russia not interfering in the 2016 election to put him into office. That is so very different than what republicans did during the Clinton impeachment and the polls are reflecting that as well.

It was interesting for me to learn that I was only one among 13 million Americans who watched the first day of the public hearings. They are on right now and I am watching that as I post this. Republicans have tried, miserably, to paint what Trump did as perfectly within his purview to do, but it is not playing out that way at all. It becomes clearer each day that these hearings are held and with each person who testifies that Trump abused the power of his office in order to try to gain political advantage against his most likely adversary in 2020. That is very far from lying about having a sexual affair, something Trump has done in spades during his campaign and during his time in office. But the House is not going after him for those affairs or his payments to women to keep quiet about them. This is about something that is spelled out as impeachable in the constitution. Bribery and foreign assistance in an upcoming election.

 

[paul1598419]

Lots of stuff happened this week in the public hearings if you didn't watch them. Bill Taylor announced something new we hadn't known before. On July 26, the day after his call that was released...well, sot of, An aide, David Holmes, was in a restaurant with Gordon Sondland and several other people made a phone call to Trump getting him on an unsecured line very quickly. Trump was speaking so loudly that Sondland held the phone away from his ear so everyone could hear. And Trump was most interested in the news about his plot to get Zelensky to start and announce an investigation into the Bidens. When Holmes later asked what Trump was wanting, Sondland told him it was all about the Bidens. To clarify, Sondland said Trump was more interested in the Bidens than in Ukraine itself.

Sondland will be testifying this Wednesday and will have a lot of explaining to do. He has already had to amend his testimony once for saying he knew nothing about this plot. But, now it seems he has left out even more damning evidence about Trump's intent. I will be watching that absolutely.

It's interesting to note that Marie Yovanovitch testified in a public setting. During her testimony a republican who was there to defend Trump asked her if she knew of any evidence that Trump had been bribed. That was a calculated, disingenuous question as no one has made the claim that anyone tried to bribe Trump. On the contrary, the evidence is overwhelming that Trump bribed Zelensky to get dirt and and announcement on CNN that he was looking into Joe Biden and possible corruption. Other republicans kept announcing they wanted news stories entered into the record, including one that they said showed that a Ukrainian was against Trump during the 2016 election. But, on further examination of that op ed, he had only responded to Trump's claim that he would be willing to let the Russians have Crimea. The op ed was really about the fact that Ukraine wasn't going to capitulate to the Russian's invasion of their country.

You'd think republicans would at least fact check these things before offering them as evidence of Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election. It is also noteworthy that during Dr. Yovanovitch's testimony Trump tweeted out an attack on her. This prompted one republican strategist to say "the only time Trump isn't shooting himself in the foot is when he is reloading." Later, in a press conference he referenced that Zelensky brought up Yovanovitch in the transcribed call, but look at that again. Zelensky was actually thanking Trump for bringing up that she was a bad ambassador. That was all he said. There are so many more hilarious events that Trump and republicans said or did, but that is all I'm going to post for now.