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Politics and General Debates Thread

Shakenawake

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Actually I would like for all Americans to have access to healthcare even if it means another payroll deduction, but it needs to be done right and without attacking freedom or being exploited for control, and felons should be able to vote after they have paid their debt to society as well as own guns, but you won't hear dems talking about restoring all rights for felons who have paid their debt, not even for non violent felons because they don't care about people's freedom or illegal immigrants, they only see any of this as a way to get votes.





BS paul, you only want your agenda to move forward and you don't care how, illegal immigrants should NOT vote in our elections and Hillary/DNC screwed Bernie Sanders out of his chance so don't tell me it's only some republican who cheated, they are all lying backstabbing cocksuckers who want to be in control and stuff their pockets and the pockets of friends who facilitate their greedy self serving desires at our great expense, but all you care about is the liberal agenda because you think it will benefit you or maybe be good somehow, maybe make your life better to know the wealthy will suffer ? Well guess what paul, the wealthy will not suffer, only the middle class and your social programs will fail just like California.
There's a lot you said there I agree with. Always nice to find some common ground.
 



paul1598419

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When you digress to name calling it sounds like you are very defensive. I can understand that because Trump is an indefensible position. There are already many states that restore voting rights to felons and they are mostly liberal states, so your assertion lacks teeth. Most of the southern states don't and they are mostly republican strongholds. I don't think giving the right to have a gun to violent felons is a good idea, especially with all the mass shootings, but I get why you might want that. There are more guns in America than citizens and they are held by a little over 30% of the population. If you listen to the NRA playbook it sounds like they are only in favor of freedom and rights. But, that neglects the rights of the other 70% of Americans who want to be safe. And, up to 93% of Americans favor closing background check loopholes and limiting magazine capacity. There is no "slippery slope" here. Common sense gun legislation has always gone on in the country. I expect it will continue. Who needs a 100 round magazine? You can't really state that you have the right to own one because the US has already limited the people who can have explosives or automatic weapons. Those used to be available to anyone, but it was found that was an untenable situation.
 

Shakenawake

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When you digress to name calling it sounds like you are very defensive. I can understand that because Trump is an indefensible position. There are already many states that restore voting rights to felons and they are mostly liberal states, so your assertion lacks teeth. Most of the southern states don't and they are mostly republican strongholds. I don't think giving the right to have a gun to violent felons is a good idea, especially with all the mass shootings, but I get why you might want that. There are more guns in America than citizens and they are held by a little over 30% of the population. If you listen to the NRA playbook it sounds like they are only in favor of freedom and rights. But, that neglects the rights of the other 70% of Americans who want to be safe. And, up to 93% of Americans favor closing background check loopholes and limiting magazine capacity. There is no "slippery slope" here. Common sense gun legislation has always gone on in the country. I expect it will continue. Who needs a 100 round magazine? You can't really state that you have the right to own one because the US has already limited the people who can have explosives or automatic weapons. Those used to be available to anyone, but it was found that was an untenable situation.
Some great points there paul.

I was actually going to ask redcowboy if he supported the ban on just anyone getting a fully automatic and what the rationale is for being ok with that but not, as you say, 100 round magazines. Or other features like the so called assault weapons ban. Telescoping butt stocks, pistol grips, fore grips, whatever. I am unsure where a line should be drawn. I think that saying no one needs that to hunt is a red herring, hunting isn't the reason we have the second amendment. To a point, I am sympathetic to the idea that the citizens should have access to similar weapons as the military, I think the second amendment supports this idea. However, it's not an irrelevant point, I dont think, to point out that guns are far different than they were when the constitution was penned. The cat may be out of the bag anyway. Many parts can be 3D printed. Ban guns like the AR 15, I think mass shooters will find something else. Magazines aren't hard to modify to hold more bullets. Criminals could do this regardless of any laws. I'm kinda sympathetic to the idea that such laws would largely just impact lawful gun owners. Might make it slightly harder for a criminal I suppose. I'm open to being persuaded.
 

RedCowboy

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You don't know what you are talking about paul, 93% of Americans don't want to eliminate gun shows and they have not limited the number of people who can own machine guns, they have limited the number of machine guns available to the public in the GCA of 1986 which limits machine guns to those made before 1986 that are available to the public after a background check, which makes them very expensive, also you pay a 200 dollar tax stamp.
100 round magazine, 10 round magazine, who's to say ? Maybe some think you don't need to live in a house so big, or own a laser so bright, of have a wife with such large breasts, who's to say what someone can posess when owning the thing in question is legal ? You see there is a slippery slope and you are smart enough to know it, but you don't care, you just want what you want, but when your socialist dream takes away your lasers and your cigarettes and crime outside your door makes your life uncomfortable I'm sure you will find a way to blame republicans........don't think it could happen ? Remember our member from Sydney who made hosts.........remember his pics of the " officials " rooting through his stuff taking away his laser pointers ? Haven't seen him in a while huh ?

As for slippery slopes a sicko with the most basic firearms that have been around over 100 years, lets say a 8 shot 1911 pistol and a 5 shot pump shotgun wearing a home depot apron full of shotgun shells could kill just as many people in a building as a person with an " assault weapon " because people run away from a shooter, basically 100 round drums and " assault anything's " are just a starting point because an assault rifle for example is just a semi auto rifle with military like cosmetic features, there is most definitely a slippery slope and when you have to register something and account for it then it's not yours anymore, you are just being allowed to hold it.....for now

Click the link below and see for yourself

 
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Shakenawake

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Red, I believe he means 93% are in favor of universal background checks, irrespective of being at a gun show or not.

I think there are slippery slope arguements to be made. Like red flag laws. Taking away rights without due process. Sounds nice, intended to prevent deaths. But letting the government decide who is and isnt mentally fit seems ripe for abuse.

Speaking of background checks, your boy trump has been pretty wishy washy on the idea

 

RedCowboy

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Trump has been quick to act and quick to speak which is unfortunate, he did not come in with a political background but he is learning and we should see a smoother 2nd term, Trump is still a better choice than any of the others for 2020

BadBoyBilly is the member I was thinking of and this is what a slippery slope looks like, now you can't even own a slingshot in Sydney

 
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paul1598419

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Yeah, you don't know what you are talking about. The guy who just killed 7 people and wounded many others in Odessa, Texas used an assault weapon that he purchased in a private sale because he was denied one after failing a background check. And magazine size makes all the difference here. Law enforcement has been very clear on this matter. Someone with a shotgun and a pocket full of shells has to reload. That is the time that law enforcement officers wait for to take them out. It is also when common citizens have waited to tackle and restrain these mass shooters. You may believe the NRA's talking points, but most people want to close the background check loopholes. It is republicans, given money by the gun lobbies who have stood in the way of this.

And Badboybilly had posted a lot of his high power laser pointers online, which are illegal in Australia, so what does that have to do with any of this? It is a different country with different laws. He even admitted that he needed to stop posting to social media about the pointers. Why don't you use China as a place where people can't own guns? It makes as much sense as saying, "look at what happened in Australia."

It may be true that some mass shooter somewhere would have the ability to 3D print a 100 round magazine, but it is unlikely. Most buy them where they are made available. If they aren't available, it would mean a mass shooter would have to stop and reload. You take an assault weapon with a bump stock and a 100 round magazine and people will be dying in large numbers before they can think to run away.
 
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RedCowboy

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And Badboybilly had posted a lot of his high power laser pointers online, which are illegal in Australia, so what does that have to do with any of this? It is a different country with different laws. He even admitted that he needed to stop posting to social media about the pointers. Why don't you use China as a place where people can't own guns? It makes as much sense as saying, "look at what happened in Australia."
You don't know what your talking about paul and you don't know how to load a shotgun not that any of it really matters to the anti gun agenda because any gun is too dangerous to a gun ban advocate, but understand this much paul, there would be a civil war in America before Americans are forced to live like Chinese who by the way are fighting for freedom in HK right now, and the BadBoyBilly example is a perfect example of government out of control, it starts with some so called common sense infringements then ends with what you see in Australia. A laser pointer over 5mw is a blinding weapon in the hands of a criminal, I mean who needs a laser over 5mw to point at something and blinding someone is as bad as killing them as far as many are concerned, as far as the Australian government is concerned 1mw is too much and you will be jailed and it started with gun control.


 
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paul1598419

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See, you try putting words in my mouth. I am not in favor of a ban on guns. Never have been, and neither are Democrats. It matters a whole lot when you have to reload in a stressful environment. Even changing out a clip can take longer than you imagine. And I have reloaded pump shotguns, so what is your point? They do take time to reload, not to mention revolvers. The one thing all these mass shooters had in common was trying to get the most shots off before reloading. Your eyes are then on your gun, unless you have trained a lot under fire before. Few mass shooters have.

Imagining a revolt among gun owners is the wet dream of everyone who pushes the "more guns in the hands of everyone is better for our safety." Guns will not be banned, and common sense gun legislation will not bring on a revolt. :ROFLMAO:
 

paul1598419

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Good, thoughtful reply. I do enjoy debating with people who have facts on their side.(y)
 

RedCowboy

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Even changing out a clip can take longer than you imagine. And I have reloaded pump shotguns, so what is your point? They do take time to reload, not to mention revolvers. The one thing all these mass shooters had in common was trying to get the most shots off before reloading. Your eyes are then on your gun, unless you have trained a lot under fire before.
Clips are used to hold rounds for stripping off into a magazine, you don't fire from a clip ( except the M1 Garand ) and you don't change them out, you are thinking about a magazine which change out very fast, clips are stripper clips, look it up sometime and gain some knowledge.

Like I said you don't know what you're talking about, you can absolutely reload a pump shotgun without looking at it 100% by feel and from an apron full of shells it's quite simple to feel the direction of shells and insert them into the feed ramp quickly, plus a shooter would fire, pump and while aiming insert more shells into the LOADING GATE while the CHAMBER IS LOADED and still able to fire, you don't have to run empty before you reload, you can reload while aiming with a round ready to fire in the chamber and stop stuffing in shells and resume fire/pump...fire/pump at any time, you simply don't know what you're talking about paul.

You think a citizen with a pistol won't charge a mass shooter but you think empty handed people will charge a shotgun while a shooter stuffs in shells while still aiming and looking around with a round in the chamber.......even if someone as ignorant about guns as you charged the shooter while he was stuffing shells into the loading gate the shooter could easily fire........it's obvious paul, you don't know a dam thing about a 100+ year old shotgun design.

As for universal background checks that will probably happen before the election, but dealing with our nations mental health problems is the real answer, we need to get people with mental health issues help before they lash out with or without a gun, any other laws that only affect the law abiding are useless and will be dealt with in court, if unconstitutional will be overturned.
 
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Alaskan

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WizardG: ........"they are all lying backstabbing cocksuckers who want to be in control and stuff their pockets and the pockets of friends who facilitate their greedy self serving desires at our great expense"
It's usually only that way, unfortunately. I don't believe any of these people running are in it for more than personal power to gain control and $$$. They all do it, even Trump is in it for the power, but I doubt for the money and I will take it. He's trying to drain the swamp, that I do believe.
 

RedCowboy

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Trump wants what's good for America, Trump wants people to be able to work and do well, but these dem hopefuls are only promising anything to get elected, if it actually came to pass, universal income for all, it would break the system, but I don't for one second expect that any of the dems if elected would keep their promises, one because they can't and two because it won't benefit them, trust me the truly wealthy can buy democrats like any other politician and won't suffer, the poor won't get their universal income, it's just a lie to get in power.
That said the greed new deal nonsense is an avenue to control and a lot of kickbacks that will be exploited if possible and as much as possible but with no real benefit to the environment.
 
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paul1598419

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Clips are used to hold rounds for stripping off into a magazine, you don't fire from a clip ( except the M1 Garand ) and you don't change them out, you are thinking about a magazine which change out very fast, clips are stripper clips, look it up sometime and gain some knowledge.

Like I said you don't know what you're talking about, you can absolutely reload a pump shotgun without looking at it 100% by feel and from an apron full of shells it's quite simple to feel the direction of shells and insert them into the feed ramp quickly, plus a shooter would fire, pump and while aiming insert more shells into the LOADING GATE while the CHAMBER IS LOADED and still able to fire, you don't have to run empty before you reload, you can reload while aiming with a round ready to fire in the chamber and stop stuffing in shells and resume fire/pump...fire/pump at any time, you simply don't know what you're talking about paul.

You think a citizen with a pistol won't charge a mass shooter but you think empty handed people will charge a shotgun while a shooter stuffs in shells while still aiming and looking around with a round in the chamber.......even if someone as ignorant about guns as you charged the shooter while he was stuffing shells into the loading gate the shooter could easily fire........it's obvious paul, you don't know a dam thing about a 100+ year old shotgun design.

As for universal background checks that will probably happen before the election, but dealing with our nations mental health problems is the real answer, we need to get people with mental health issues help before they lash out with or without a gun, any other laws that only affect the law abiding are useless and will be dealt with in court, if unconstitutional will be overturned.

I just got back from the hospital after breaking the bones in my right foot. I had tripped in the night and spent three days in the hospital.

Here are just two examples of unarmed citizens who charged a mass shooter and disarmed him as he tried to reload. There are others, but I think these make my point just fine.


Patricia Maisch ripped an ammo clip from the hand of the gunman who had just murdered six people and wounded thirteen others, including Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. By separating a mass murderer from his bullets as he tried to reload, Maisch kept a tragedy from getting worse.


This time it was students at Seattle Pacific University who jumped on a man who opened fire in the campus building, killing one and wounding three others before he could reload.

So, it would seem that YES, unarmed citizens do rush mass shooters while they are trying to reload and disarm them. Do you think these are made up? Of course they aren't!
 




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