BFG Laser Problems

[Revolvr]

If you are contemplating buying a BFG Laser, think twice, and read the thread in GENERAL titled MAJOR RANT.

I bought mine before this thread started and received it today. I estimate it's power to be roughly half what is should be. I sent the following letter to BFG, and I will post their response. The third option, a partial refund, is being quite generous, as I can buy a 50mW DX for $50. But it's less hassle for the both of us.

-- Rev

Dear BFG Lasers,

I received my BFG Laser today. I am concerned about the power output. I fed it 2 new Energizer e2 Lithium batteries as recommended and experimented with it. I found that it will not cut through black electrical tape, even after 3 minutes fixed at one spot, from 2 to 3 inches. Pointing it at my skin for 30 seconds from 1 foot distance will not feel warm. It will ignite a black sharpied match from 4 inches after about 100 seconds.

I do not have an accurate power meter, but I would estimate based on this a power of around 50mW to 70mW. Clearly it is substantially below, probably about half, what I expected and below the advertised and demonstrated power.

I would like to return this for either a verified replacement (meaning tested to close to 150mW), or a refund. Another possibility would be I keep the laser after a 50% refund, since it at best has about 50% of the advertised power. What do you think is appropriate in this situation?

Regards

 

[jimc1128]

Thanks for posting - I was considering purchasing a BFG laser.  I will hold off and wait for their reply to you.

 

[SenKat]

Good move - fair and equitable on your part as well. I am interested in his reply.

 

[Daedal]

Seems many laser companies are flaking very badly lately, eh? This only makes me believe the best thing to do is build your own.

Please keep it updated with what he responds to you in regards to this issue, we're curious about how he'll handle this situation;
DDL

 

[Revolvr]

Here is BFG Laser's response verbatim:

Hi Dan, the manufacturing cost exceeds a 50% discount for the item. It is the parts themselves that are expensive, so that even a 20mW output laser can cost around $70-100. As the power goes up, the cost per mW decreases.

Please note that based on current FDA regulations, lasers are labelled based on their maximum tuned output. Many people think they should be labelled by their "average" output, but this is incorrect and is mainly the result of Wicked Laser listing practices which is based in China and not subject to the same regulations. The peak output is ~150 and will average at around 135-140mW.

The IR filter which the laser has, will cut the IR down to <1mW, but it will also cut the 532nm down by 10-15% from our lab testing (approx 15-20mW). Also, the burning power is based not solely on the power output. It is also dependent on the beam diameter and also divergence. Our specs are slightly above (<1.5mm and <1.5mRad) more expensive lasers which run up to $400-500, which is a compromise we take for the lower cost.

Although the beam takes some time to light the match, I would say the output is sitting around 115 or so, which is not out of the ordinary based on the average and the filter. You typically need about a 50mw (unfiltered), and 90mw (filtered) to light a match, but it will still depend on the beam specs. Try a lens on the beam at see if you have better results first.


This is much the same deceit as in his response to the other person, except he did not allow a refund. I could go through this point by point if someone wants me to. But to summarize, he admits his lasers are grossly underpowered relative to his advertising claims, and it is the customer's stupidity (that would be me) for having expectations beyond it's capabilities.

My response, and his, coming up....

-- Rev

 

[Revolvr]

If anyone read BFG's response and did not immediately see the inconsistencies and falsehoods, please chime in and I will explain. After all one purpose for these forums is to educate.

To me, BFG takes their customers as fools. Rather than rip it apart point by point, I simply made the point that BFG sets customer expectations through their advertising, and this laser did not meet up with those expectations, even by a long shot. So I offered this response:

***

Your advertising shows the BFG laser lighting a match within 3 seconds, unaided by a lens. Another also shows popping many balloons up to about 5 feet, almost instantly, without aid of a lens.

I understand the complexities of laser power and beam quality. Nevertheless your laser does not meet any of my expectations, by a long shot. And my expectations are set by you, not by WL.

If you can send me a laser that performs as these videos show, please do. Otherwise I simply request an RMA so I can return this for a refund.

***

My expectation was he would offer me a return refund. But that is not what happened.

Instead, BFG chose not to respond at all. Or did they? Shortly after I sent this, BFG REMOVED the link to the video showing the BFG laser lighting matches. In effect, admitting their lasers currently cannot even light matches well - an easy test, and essentially admitting the video did not represent their products capabilities. But still they won't respond to me.

So I am out almost $300 bucks for a laser I could get for well under half that. Not only are they screwing me, but they are screwing the other vendor I would have bought from if I could get my money back. I am now contemplating my next response.

Cheers,

-- Rev

 

[Kenom]

one of the main reasons he removed the match light video was so that people would no longer relate match lighting with his laser.\

that and the movie was mine and he did NOT have permission to use my movie for his purposes. I'm sure wanting to avoid any possible litigation as a result of using my movie he removed it.

There is no doubt in my mind now that this man is in the process of committing financial suicide. There is no way that a company can provide this horrible of customer service and survive. It just doesn't happen. I know he comes to these forums occasionally and has I've no doubt seen the recent criticism of his company and it's practices. Unless he doesn't wanna sell any more lasers he needs to step up his game and start providing for his customers like any decent business. Without customers there is NO BUSINESS. So here is my call to him which I know he will eventually see.

STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND HONOR THE CLAIMS YOUR MAKING ON YOUR LASER OR BOW OUT NOW. WE WILL RUN YOU OUT OF BUSINESS. YOU THINK A FEW PEOPLE ON A FORUM ARE INSIGNIFICANT BUT I ASSURE YOU, WE ARE THE ONES WHO MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO START A BUSINESS. WITHOUT US THERE IS NO YOU. WE KNOW OTHERS AND THOSE OTHERS KNOW OTHERS AND SO ON. WORD OF MOUTH TRAVELS INSTANTLY ON THE INTERNET. BLOGS WILL POP UP EVERYWHERE AND YOU WILL BE RUINED. NOW IS YOUR CHANCE TO BE A PERSON OF INTEGRITY AND HONOR. DO THE RIGHT THING!

 

[SenKat]

Here is my email to Rick :

Rick - look at this link. You NEED to do something, or word will get out 100% to all possible future customers. I had no idea you would treat people this way, which is why I was eager to assist you with getting started - as all of us were eager. I find your reply morally reprehensible, and totally against good taste and character. I have publically pulled my support of you, and your products out of hte forums, and will continue to do so. I hate to see this happen to anyone, but total falsehoods, and outright dishonest behavior on your part towards your customers, and my firends have prompted me to write this email. You need to make good on customer service, man - or you will be stuck with all of your remaining stock I think it is just plain nastiness that you are treating people this way. And for someone who claimed to have been ignorant about Wicked Laser's names for their lasers at first - you sure do think you know a lot about their company. Plain and simply put - you have pissed me off - you have pissed off LOTS of people on the forums, and I regret ever doing a review for you, and I regret that my name was ever associated with you, and your lasers. NEVER have I written this type of an email to anyone - not for any reason, but you have pushed me beyond my capacity to hold back on what I write.

Here is the link for your reference - it could very well be your last sale. At this point, I think that is great, as you do not deserve to sell a single thing - not now, not ever. Not with those business practices. You have now earned a reputation for yourself - not a good one either. I doubt you will repy to this email, or to any of the posts that have been created regarding you and your lasers.

http://www.laserpointerforums.com/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1184207680/0


Greg


I will let everyone know if he replies or not.

 

[Revolvr]

Here is my reply to BFG:

****

Dear BFG Lasers,

By now I am sure you have read several independent and very negative reports on one or more laser forums on the Internet. Mine is not the only one. I had planned to do a detailed product review and I expected it to be positive. Instead it has focused less on the laser and more on lack of honesty and integrity in your sales pitch and post sales support.

You know of course that news like this spreads through the Internet like an Arizona wildfire. It is not my intention to damage your business in any way. Actually, there is nothing I can do to harm your business. Any harm will come from your actions, not mine or anyone else’s.

It is in fact, to everyone’s benefit that BFG Lasers succeeds. If you treated your customers with respect and honesty, and if your lasers actually produced 150mW average, and did so consistently, then at your price point you have the opportunity to steal significant marketshare from WL and other vendors. Isn’t that the goal?

BFG has two choices. BFG can continue as they are, with false and deceptive advertising, and treating customers with contempt. Perhaps a move to Craigslist to try reaching unwitting and uneducated customers would briefly delay the inevitable.

Or, BFG can take specific and measurable actions that would turn this whole thing around in a hurry. Recall Coca-Cola’s huge blunder when they changed their recipe. Yet they turned the blunder around to a marketing coup by aggressively managing their mistake.

In my professional life, I help organizations turn around quality problems. If you are interested I can make a set of recommendations to BFG – for free. However it is up to BFG to admit the issue first and take the initiative.

As always, BFG’s future is solely in BFG’s hands.

Regards,

 

[Daedal]

I highly doubt he would reply, or for that matter associate himself with the forums or having read what they said. But in all honesty, this is his fault and his actions contribute to his profits and customer base. I am surprised at how he would be running a laser business and not pay attention to any of the forums that are dragging his name in the mud! I am very sad to see someone get out of business for any reason regardless, but if it is any reason, it's only fair that it is one initiated by the company itself... action have reactions and a company with a bad name is a company with a nice big hump in its way. Many major companies including Coca-Cola and other big names lost nearly all their customer base and had to regain it in some way or the other.

It is very odd that he mentions WL many times, and in every e-mail it seems. Does he assume that the average customer is an inexperienced hobbyist who has only heard of one company out there... Wicked? Why does he feel so threatened by Wicked? Their products are a flop of their own! They only got their big name because they were one of the first to get into the business and one that got mentioned on the news for their power and availability. BFG was born and continues to make its customers from the laser forums. I hope BFG changes their ways, and I hope they end up providing a product that I know many of us wanted to invest in.

Gl to all, and sorry about your loss Revolvr;
DDL

P.S. A simple and quick search for 'green laser(s)', 'burning laser(s)', or any other term that an inexperienced novice would look for has turned up nothing about BFG. The only way to hear of BFG is to read about them in the forums!

 

[Justin]

I don't want to get too involved here but I do want to straighten out the labelling issue:

Lasers have to be labelled with a warning stating the maximum output power within their particular FDA class. So, a Class IIIb laser should state something like "Peak Power <500mW @ 532nm" or whatever the class and wavelength is. However, this is strictly for regulatory reasons and should not be used as an excuse for selling underpowered lasers. Anybody who owns an Aries will know that they come labelled with the FDA required "peak <500mW" AND the actual tested peak AND the actual tested average over 10 minutes. Obviously, you don't sell a laser based on what the FDA label says, that's just nonsense.

Also, stating that the power output is low because the IR filter removes 10% of the green light would indicate that he is testing these without the IR filter and then installing it? This means that the test results actually include all of the IR light that is subsequently filtered out, so the power rating is based on the beam containing a wavelength that you don't even get... Unless, of course he's using an IR filtered testing device in which case he's still measuring the output power on an unfinished device. Either way, it doesn't sound like a very well concieved testing method.

 

[roarg]

Hey, with the BFG's 'assumed' power (50-120mW) Is it still a good price? I am looking for a high powered greenie for firework-pointing (no burning)

 

[SenKat]

No - I would suggest a DX 200 instead. At 200mw and $120.00 you cannot go wrong.

 

[Daedal]

No - I would suggest a DX 200 instead. At 200mw and $120.00 you cannot go wrong.

DX200mW all the way! I had mine and it was underpowered and mode-hopping and still was a steal for the price. They did not fuss about it or make excuses. They simply send me the return address, which is in the USA, and they refunded my shipping cost, and were sending me a replacement. I am very pleased with their Customer service and their business model. I truly appreciate DealExtreme's way of business as it is much more straight forward than any other I've known. I personally canceled because I won the last raffle for the X85, which, too, is an amazing laser. Sorry SenKat... a review is still to come... :-[

Hope that helps;
DDL

 

[Placebo]

Hey, with the BFG's 'assumed' power (50-120mW) Is it still a good price? I am looking for a high powered greenie for firework-pointing (no burning)

I wouldn't recommend this guy even if he could use his dick for sun-pointing.

 

[roarg]

Well the thing is he(rick?) lives like 5-10 MINUTES(walking) from where i LIVE.
And says i can pick out the best one from the ones he has on hand. So..JA

Oh and on the page

Most of these and other made in China green lasers do not have IR filters and thus can be hazardous to eyes without proper protective eye wear

soo... ????

EDIT: wow backordered!