Old 06-10-2012, 07:44 AM #17
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Let's look at the join dates of people who want ban polls.

People in favor:
AnthoT - 2012
ARGLaser - 2011
bennett326- 2011
DarkSide - 2011
Flaminpyro - 2009
Jacob32123 - 2009
joeyss - 2008
rpaloalto - 2009
Sigurthr - 2011
T_Warne - 2009

People opposed:
bobhaha - 2009
Cyparagon - 2007
daguin - 2008
Ibuprofen200mg - 2011
jcranmer - 2011
madmacmo - 2009
ShortyInCanada - 2011
Things - 2007
Trevor - 2009

Just for a cursory look, let's average these years. Those in favor average to a 2010 join date. Those against? 2009.1.

With the exception of three people, everyone who voted against ban polls was around when they were going on.

Fully half of the people who voted in favor were not around during the age of the ban poll, and several of those who were around are incredibly biased due to the circumstances surrounding this poll.

Those polls were a disaster. An absolute disaster. They were extremely divisive, and spilled over into the rest of the forum. They should never come back.

This isn't a poll for whether or not the forum should be democratic. This is a poll about people wanting to be "tried" by a jury of their peers. But, that only works in the court system. In ban polls, the "defendant" runs around behind the scenes, trying to rally people to vote to keep them around. Meanwhile, others lobby for votes against them.

At that point, it's no longer a "jury trial." It's become about who can rally the most support, and what side of the line in the sand each member is on. It's no longer about what's good for the forum in the long run.

Ban polls are a witch hunt. They're not democratic. They're not a jury trial.

I know the culture of the forum is going to change over time. The torch is always being passed to newer people, to steer the forum. Should the newer members decide to vote ban polls back into existence, I hope that the realization that they've made a terrible mistake comes sooner rather than later.

Trevor


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Old 06-10-2012, 09:22 AM #18
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Couldn't have said it any better!
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:24 AM #19
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

I voted yes, but only for lack of another option.

IMNHO the moderator team, and admin should be able to ban people.

The conditions of that ban should be different from what they are now though.

At present it seems any mod, can ban any member, at any time, for any reason, with zero justification or process.

There is no discussion of the ban among the moderator team, and no vote.

This is clearly what happened with the FP ban.

So for lack of another option my vote is for the return of ban polls, however I would prefer simply a formal, and public ban process instead, where at least veteran can contribute to the discussion.

Just my $0.02. All sales are final.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:28 AM #20
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Ban Polls have been discussed to death on the Forum.
It seems like every time a member gets banned since the
Ban Polls were abolished the "I want Ban Polls" cry comes
to the forefront again.

We have had Ban Polls in the past and they were great fuel
for the Drama fires polarizing the Forum between buddy camps.

Members were crying for a Ban Info Thread and got one.
That's enough info for me. I may not agree 100% of the
time with a decision a Mod or the Admin may make but I
will go along with their decision for one simple reason.........

I DON'T OWN THIS FORUM

I'm a guest here by invitation in someone else's house like
every other LPF member here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
I voted yes, but only for lack of another option.

IMNHO the moderator team, and admin should be able to ban people.

The conditions of that ban should be different from what they are now though.

At present it seems any mod, can ban any member, at any time, for any reason, with zero justification or process.

There is no discussion of the ban among the moderator team, and no vote.

This is clearly what happened with the FP ban.

So for lack of another option my vote is for the return of ban polls, however I would prefer simply a formal, and public ban process instead, where at least veteran can contribute to the discussion.

Just my $0.02. All sales are final.
BTW.... again you are stating facts that you were not privy to.
Those statements are only your opinion and not facts.


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Old 06-10-2012, 11:44 AM #21
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
At present it seems any mod, can ban any member, at any time, for any reason, with zero justification or process.
Being private property, this is perfectly acceptable behavior at the discretion of the admin.
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:34 PM #22
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

As far as I can see this proposal was put forward because:
1) A long time poster and seller was banned.
2) Many people, including me, were upset about this.
3) Several of these people believe that his ban being overturned means that it must have been the product of completely unjustified vigilantism.

Now, first of all I have not seen any evidence that the moderator acted alone. All I have seen is that Avery himself did not issue the ban - but that does not necessarily mean he didn't support it to begin with. His stated reason for unbanning Jeff was that he received a large number of complaints - not that someone had been playing King of the Mods.

Secondly, it was made quite clear what Jeff was banned for - PMs and e-mails. While I do usually disagree with banning over private communications, I do not know the full extent of the trouble in these communications. Neither do the vast majority of people here.

Lastly, why does everyone want to overhaul the current system? Jeff was banned for what.. 4 hours? I call that a minor inconvenience, not a major flaw.
Avery has even chosen to review all bans. Bans that the general membership disagree with have gone from being rare and of short duration, to being almost non-existent.

Even if you somehow disagree with everything said above and believe that some of the current moderators are corrupt and horrible, ban polls are the LAST alternative we should look to.
Trevor has already made a great outline of why that is.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:09 PM #23
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Honestly the only reason I voted yes is because I'd really like to know who is going to be banned BEFORE the ban happens.. you know, so I can get contact info or resolve any already-in-the-works transactions or conversations. When people just disappear out of no where (I tend not to be drawn to read threads which are prone to drama) it makes life difficult when you are in association with them.

Also, I assumed the population being polled would be the moderators, not the entire forum, so that one mod can't just ban someone without the approval of all/majority. A PUBLIC Ban Poll is a different story and I can see how that would go as Trevor described.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:11 PM #24
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurthr View Post
Honestly the only reason I voted yes is because I'd really like to know who is going to be banned BEFORE the ban happens.. you know, so I can get contact info or resolve any already-in-the-works transactions or conversations.
Don't forget you can always PM a mod or Avery for their email address if you get stuck like this.

Dan
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:13 PM #25
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Oh, I had no idea! Thanks, Things, that is rather helpful!
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:24 PM #26
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?



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Old 06-10-2012, 02:58 PM #27
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

For those who have had the pleasure not to have ever seen a ban thread, I urge you to leaf through these. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're required reading.

Look what ban polls do to us:

http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ban-bobh-51163.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...fan-48724.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...der-48143.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...ase-47575.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...its-47390.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/sh...ned-44612.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/sh...ned-44793.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...ain-45037.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...e22-44839.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/po...erd-44470.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...gen-44203.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...red-43117.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/ba...ime-59096.html
http://laserpointerforums.com/f58/sh...ned-61895.html

The last one on that list is a more recent one. If you look only at a couple threads, the DarkArmyOfOne threads are pretty exemplary of why public ban polls are bad.

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Old 06-10-2012, 04:17 PM #28
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

I would like to remove my yes vote.
What I want is some process put in place. A process that will protect our vets
from being permaband.

I couldn't believe Jeff was band permanently the other day, because of something trivial.
The fact that he was sending teasing emails to another banned member. Even though the same banned member did the same thing to Jeff last month.

Yes I agree Jeff should have just let it be. It was not a wise decision on his part, a little immature. At worst a temp ban would have been more then enough to allow him to rethink his actions.

Now it does not take rocket science to figure out there is two camps here at LPF. The like Jeff camp, and those who dislike him. Unfortunately it seems like the dislike Jeff camp have decided that they are going to do there best to get Jeff banned.

Since it seems like we cant all get along. We need to do something about all the trivial bickering. Were all still arguing just like back when we had the ban polls. It's the same arguing over who gets banned.

Most of the arguing is over all the drama that takes place in emails and pm's.
Each side is using that as ammo to acomplish there goal of banning that member. They come crying to avery or the mods with a ''so and so said this, or so and so did this''.
We need to take away that ammo. If we dont make sending pm's and emails a banable crime, most of the drama will go away.
If two people are arguing or not getting along they need some place to vent and work it out. Since the open forum is not the place to do this. They need to do it in pm's or emails.
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:05 PM #29
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Can someone change my vote to no? After reading through the whole thread I have decided against it.

It is quite clear that the past ban polls were creating more drama and conflict than they were resolving.
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:13 PM #30
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

Add my name to no aswell, I just read a couple of those things & I think it's best no ban polls
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:26 PM #31
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Default Re: should there be ban polls?

I have decided there will not be ban polls. Instead, all bans (except spammers), the mod team and I will agree on. I am thinking in addition to this, a few members in the veterans board would also need to approve the ban. I am on vacation now but will create a new thread to discuss this new option later.

In the meantime, lets just get along and have peace.
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