Pyrotechnic powders

I didn't really think it was a good idea discussing this openly on a forum. As many of you know, there are lots of underage and immature readers prowling the pages...

Anyway PM sent, please heed the warnings!

wannaburn said:

Very sound advice.. Perchlorate is the more desired oxidizer as it offers a bit more stability
over chlorate. The problem with taking apart any fireworks is that the mixtures in say something
like blackcats still use chlorate AL and sulfur. Not only is P. Chlorate and AL a sensitive mix,
adding sulfur makes it even more so.

TO the OP, before you even start with anything, be sure to do some deep reading and
know what you are doing. There are several videos on youtube of young gents who dove
in without being 100%, and now have various injuries to show for it.

I use a few different compounds for my videos, but never mix more than a gram.
Flash powders require very little confinement to explode, and if enough is mixed,
the weight of the powder on itself can be enough to cause an explosion. You
dont have to be making 'm-80's' or the like to get hurt.

Not to scare you but here are a few clips to just give a dose of reality, and maybe
put the seriousness of what small amounts can do if handled incorrectly. Even static
can set of mixes like a chlorate flash powder, or 'armstrongs' mix mentioned above..





Something that should not be taken lightly.

Click to expand...

Holly Crap......

Oh yeah..... I want some of that....

You might as well go to Wallmart and buy a blender
to stick your hand into...

I need ALL my fingers.... no thanks....

bloompyle said:

I've been fiddling with pyrotechnic powders here and there for some time now. Very little to work with though. Just the powders I gut from fireworks (silly, and dangerous, yes, don't do it.) However, I'm looking for a nice source that some members here use. I know there's a ton out there,

Click to expand...

Leave it to Blommie to "fiddle with" explosive powders....


Jerry

TL;DR

All I saw was you wanted plumes of smoke and some sparks.

I'd say don't try mixing the black and silver powders that you find in bottle rockets. Silver powder is a fast burning and bright for the report, black powder is slow burning, smokey, and makes orange sparks. Maybe because it is cheaply made.

And bottle rockets are cheap.

dont open rockets you never know whats in them and they could be very unstable.

If you want smoke, make a smoke bomb.
To make one, mix 3parts potassium nitrate to 2parts sugar ( like 3 tbsp potassium, 2 tbsp sugar) and put it into a skillet outdoors, put the heat on the lowest and stir continuously. after like 5minutes, the sugar will caramelize and when it looks like peanut butter, take it off the heat and dollop it onto a sheet of foil and stick a fuse into it while its still soft, then once its rock hard, which is in like 10minutes, go outside and light the fuse.
Also note that the stuff is flammable so you don't really need a fuse, you can directly light it.

I dont know about sparks but I think I read somewhere that if you burn alumunium powder or shavings then it makes sparks, not too familiar with it though.

If you want sparks, just buy a sparkler

Thanks Jerry, for another one of your comments. By "fiddle with" I didn't mean mixing random crap, I had some knowledge of what I was doing, and I never did anything in large amounts. There isn't much powder in a small firework. The mixes were of like fireworks, if I did them at all. Like green and red smoke balls. That's all I mixed, and I took apart the ones that whistle, wrapped them in tissue paper, and when they went off it made one quick "poof" and a large smoke cloud was made. That's how much "fiddling" was done. I knew doing too much, or being too adventurous, could lead to things in those videos. That's also the reason I stopped cold turkey, because I realized something like that could happen. I'm also trying to ween off of the pyro behavior. There was a time when I'd light all sorts of random things on fire, stupid first of all, plus you never know what types of fumes you're breathing in when lighting chemicals, and plastics. My mother told me at a young age that the chemicals in plastic bags because poisonous when the bag is burned. I can only assume the same principal applies to similar plastics. Now I don't do nearly as much burning. I sit particularly close to camp fires, and find decent sticks to set aflame in said fire, but that's where I cross the line.

Even as it stands, I don't plan on mixing much, because I value my appendages highly. If I can make something that sparks and crackles SAFELY, then I'll do that, along with something that makes a flame (like flash paper) and something that makes smoke. Beyond that, I'm thinking of sticking with falling leaf and flying fish fuses.

grainde said:

I didn't really think it was a good idea discussing this openly on a forum. As many of you know, there are lots of underage and immature readers prowling the pages...

Anyway PM sent, please heed the warnings!

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree this is somewhat true related to kids on the forum. However I don't know how others feel, but I personally don't believe that scientific knowledge, chemistry etc. should be hidden or kept from people for the purpose of their own safety. If this was so, much of the information on laser construction here would have been hidden as well. People do have a right to know about the physical properties and chemistry of the world around them, and this is a science related forum. I learned a lot in my early teenage years about chemistry, problem solving, and creativity in the quest to teach myself about pyrotechnics and create new projects and different kinds of effects. However, kids absolutely should not be experimenting with any kind of chemistry without their parents knowledge and supervision until they are old enough or can prove to their parents that they have done the required reading to know about the precautions and potential dangers of all the chemicals involved and the possiblity of burns and bodily injury.

I personally only worked with very small amounts of some of the safer fireworks formulas, and never ever would have built anything that was large enough to cause major bodily harm.

Of course I would never advise anyone to try anything I have suggested and I or others cannot be held responsible for any injury as a result of trying any of the chemistry and pyrotechnic projects, and while some can be less dangerous than others, they all have the potential for some danger without all the proper precautions and do diligence!

ElectroMagneticFreak said:

The hobby fireworks community is very much like the laser community in that in pyrotechnics they frown on noobs wanting to learn to make flash powder and salutes, large firecrackers etc. right away without background knowledge on safety or chemistry just like noobs with lasers that want to burn right away with a 1.8W 445nm.

Click to expand...

If you know this then it would seem irresponsible to show the
Pyrotechnic noobs on this LASER related Forum the places to
purchase chemicals and how to mix them.

Perhaps a better place to go into details on mixing pyrotechnical
chemicals would be on a PYROTECNICS Forum....

@ Bloomie... you're welcome... You may continue to "fiddle"....


Jerry

lasersbee said:

If you know this then it would seem irresponsible to show the
Pyrotechnic noobs on this LASER related Forum the places to
purchase chemicals and how to mix them.

Perhaps a better place to go into details on mixing pyrotechnical
chemicals would be on a PYROTECNICS Forum....


Jerry

Click to expand...

Thanks Jerry for your response. I am willing to delete all of my previous posts on this if this is what you and the other veterans recommend. The projects I were recommending such as "fountains" and slow burning fuses are considered the safest things to approach for a beginner. I realize there are people unaware of pyrotechnics entirely and are simply dissecting fireworks and collecting the powder and making one "giant" firecracker. That is why I was trying to redirect those types of activities into much safer and more productive "approved of" projects that are far less dangerous for the beginner.

That said, if you guys feel it is innapropriate to discuss any of this, even the safer smaller chemistry / pyrotechics experiments I would gladly ask the admins to remove my posts. Please PM me if you would like me to EDIT / Delete anything as I want to respect the forum, and the feelings of those more senior to me here on the forum.

Thanks for understanding...
If the Posts are a liability to the Forum a Mod will
probably let you know what to do...:beer:


Jerry

lasersbee said:

If you know this then it would seem irresponsible to show the
Pyrotechnic noobs on this LASER related Forum the places to
purchase chemicals and how to mix them.

Perhaps a better place to go into details on mixing pyrotechnical
chemicals would be on a PYROTECNICS Forum....

@ Bloomie... you're welcome... You may continue to "fiddle"....


Jerry

Click to expand...

Haven't fiddled with fireworks in years. Kinda glad too after watching those videos. Knowing my habits at the time, there's a good chance that I'd be in the "related to this video" section. And I agree with Jerry, this is in fact a laser forum. I did not expect this thread to go so deep in this direction. Just incase you are told to delete and/or edit some posts, I'll go ahead and copy and paste it in a document for further use. Good bit of info. Furthermore, there's no need to apologize for rambling. The same thing happens to me when I start looking back at marine/aquatic bio, reptile, and amphibian forums. All the desires of owning a reef tank, ball python, and a large vivarium full of PDFs start coming back to mind. So no worries =]

ElectroMagneticFreak said:

Yes, I agree this is somewhat true related to kids on the forum.

Click to expand...

Exactly my point. I have no objections to sharing information and hence the PM to Bloomie. :yh:

ElectroMagneticFreak said:

However I don't know how others feel, but I personally don't believe that scientific knowledge, chemistry etc. should be hidden or kept from people for the purpose of their own safety.

Click to expand...

Again I couldn't have put it better myself! i am not advocating all out censorship, but merely some moderation. Many had supplied the chemicals required, mixing ratios and even where to source them! We all know that many kids hangout here and that they are eager to try out new things. Its the same issue with high powered lasers, if they really want to find out they will, but not before they have hopefully done enough research to understand the risks.

ElectroMagneticFreak said:

If this was so, much of the information on laser construction here would have been hidden as well. People do have a right to know about the physical properties and chemistry of the world around them, and this is a science related forum. I learned a lot in my early teenage years about chemistry, problem solving, and creativity in the quest to teach myself about pyrotechnics and create new projects and different kinds of effects.

Click to expand...

Yup and I did exactly the same thing; pyrotechnics sparked my interest in chemistry, no pun intended, and led me to a career in the subject.

ElectroMagneticFreak said:

However, kids absolutely should not be experimenting with any kind of chemistry without their parents knowledge and supervision until they are old enough or can prove to their parents that they have done the required reading to know about the precautions and potential dangers of all the chemicals involved and the possiblity of burns and bodily injury.

Click to expand...

Here's why I didn't submit info. Where is the parental supervision on the internet?

Basically I agree with everything you said in this post, but I just thought it prudent to exercise some caution.


Last thing Daawoods suggestion to heat KNO3 and sugar, stirring, until it caramelizes, is really not a good idea. This is actually dangerous and could result in severe burns if it goes wrong. We did a similar experiments at Uni warming tiny quantities of chlorates and nitrates in test tubes and then introducing a material that is readily reduced ie a piece of wood or sugar! NOTE no naked flames were used and this resulted in a jet of flame nearly a foot long....!

Grainde, those are some excellent points. I agree with everything you said and it is true that there is no supervision on the internet regarding kids finding out about sourcing ingredients for making devices their parents may not even be aware they are constructing.

While there are many sources of this info availiable, and many with dangerous instructions such as on youtube, I was trying to steer those interested away from the more dangerous and innapropriate activities and into something more constructive since they are probably going to do things that are far more dangerous if there is no alternative source of more safe ideas for projects to work on other than large "booms." However, while we have begun to discuss the dos and dont's it is impossible to provide all of the information neccessary to know how to safely experiment with the chemistry related to pyrotechnics. While it is possible to suggest very specific projects such as fountains using chemicals that are known to be fairly safe, do not spontaneously react, burn slowly, and are fairly incensitive to friction, it is always possible for someone to experiment outside the bounds of the instructions given for a safe project.

Given this fact I entirely understand if beginning to approach the subject of pyrotechnics is something better not to even attempt to get into on a laser forum, even within the off topic section.

I have PM'd Daguin, following Jerrys' suggestion and so I am completely willing to have my posts on this thread removed if neccessary.

lasersbee said:

Holly Crap......

......
You might as well go to Wallmart and buy a blender
to stick your hand into...


Jerry

Click to expand...

I actually did that when I was a young kid. Luckily I had a close escape and didn't chop all my fingers off but it sure looked like I'd had a good go. Probably the stupidest thing I've ever done in my life (apart from getting married)

I would be willing to remove my posts iswell, it seems i gave the most sites, specific ratios etc.

The melting sugar and kno3 method, it isnt that dangerous, I have no idea how you managed to produce a foot of flame, the biggest flame you can get is a quick flash of fire about 3cm in length, but I do agree that the process is dangerous, if you dont stop when it becomes like peanut butter,then it will be hot enough to start the burning process, and in a pan, all the fire will go upwards and there will be a lot of smoke, the biggest danger would probably be if your stupid enough to hold the resulting smoke bomb while its burning, that would hurt

So you guys want me to remove my posts?

I always bought my fuse from here. American Visco Cannon Fuse - CannonFuse.com

daawood123 said:

I would be willing to remove my posts iswell, it seems i gave the most sites, specific ratios etc.

The melting sugar and kno3 method, it isnt that dangerous, I have no idea how you managed to produce a foot of flame, the biggest flame you can get is a quick flash of fire about 3cm in length, but I do agree that the process is dangerous, if you dont stop when it becomes like peanut butter,then it will be hot enough to start the burning process, and in a pan, all the fire will go upwards and there will be a lot of smoke, the biggest danger would probably be if your stupid enough to hold the resulting smoke bomb while its burning, that would hurt

So you guys want me to remove my posts?

Click to expand...

I think he may have been referring to reducing a sugar with molten potassium chlorate.
When that stuff is heated it is very reactive. Im sure KNO3 will probably also do this
which is why heating an oxidizer already mixed with fuel is not a wise idea.




If you want to make a smoke powder, there is no need to caramelize it.. A straight up
50/50 powder mix works just fine. Also, you dont want to be breathing a KNO3 mix as
N2 is released when burnt.

Also, caramelizing this mix is kind of pointless in that the end result becomes hygroscopic
and will get all slimy and sticky, especially in the moist summer months.

I would recommend working with dry separate powders, and only mixing what you need at
the moment. Storing premixed compounds with even a mild oxidizer may be somewhat safe
but not a safe move to make when working with such materials.