Old 07-12-2011, 03:12 AM #49
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Um. The laser stuff IS a side business. However I'm one of the owners of my primary income generating business as well.. which happens to have absolutely nothing to do with lasers.. However the principle is still the same and business is still business.

Yes I agree trying to only sell to 'LPF' as a primary income source is pointless. There's just not enough market, even with the influx of 'appliance operators', since most of them want complete working lasers.. Which isn't a smart thing to be selling in the US by US located sellers in the current legal climate unless your legal about it, which will most likely price said lasers well beyond what most would be willing to pay when they could get the same power levels from china for half the price.

And I didn't realize I was mad at anyone.


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Old 07-12-2011, 03:27 AM #50
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Default

Technically I'm a systems administrator not an appliance operator. . I'm better with my head them my hands. I know were my strenghs are and it's not building lasers. At least not yet which is why I choose to purchase my lasers.

I know the appliance operator comments are not directed at me personally but for some reason I take a slight bit of offense at them, even if they are true. :whistle;

Anyway back to your regularly scheduled "debating".
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:30 AM #51
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Competition is good... it makes it so we all can enjoy the hobby as opposed to only those who have enough money (or an incredible amount of time+brains). I most certainly wouldn't have been able to get into the hobby had it not been for competition.

Lava may charge 2x(23) to power a 445nm diode at full power. All glory to him for providing the first quality boost driver to hobbyists. Jib is looking at making a driver that costs 21 dollars that would be able to power the same thing. Essentially half the cost... more power to him for making a drive that more of us can now afford. More power to me if I can develop a boost drive that performs the same function for 12 dollars. And finally more power to some random Chinese company that takes one of these drives and reproduces it for 3 dollars apiece. Competition brings a better product at a price that makes it more affordable for us all.

Don't you see? This is called progress! To try to monopolize and attack your competition as un ethical for creating a superior product is to impede this progress. Are you here to just make profit(or recognition) for yourself or are you here to help others? Just don't forget the almighty that started it all.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:51 AM #52
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

I agree with everything but the last part. The chinese stealing someone elses design only benefits them and the buyers (initially, but not in the long run).. And while a lot of people might not care about that.. the people who actually come up with the designs certainly do. There is zero incentive to innovate when you know someone else is just going to rip you off and profit from your work and likely run you out of business in the process. Again. Consumers generally can't see far enough down the road to find reason to care but in the long run it does greatly effect them even though they don't realize it, since it means less innovation as the people who actually do come up with things simply get frustrated and give up.
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Old 07-12-2011, 01:58 PM #53
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
There is another factor.... the experience of the machinists and
the acceptable tolerances a machinist will accept as a salable
product. Not all heatsinks will have identical tolerances...

The tighter the tolerance the longer the work will take... and that
will impact the costs differently for the seller that is running a
business or the guy making it in his spare time in his dad's garage
using his dad's tools for free...

I found a long time ago that there is "some" correlation between
supposedly identical products and price in the general marketplace...

As to the Price/Quality on the Forum... I can't say... I don't really
build Lasers using these Heat Sinks...

So I don't have 1st hand knowledge of any Heat Sinks sold on
the Forum....




BTW... if you feel you should get "stuff" for only the price of parts
and no labor at all.....
perhaps you should start by buying a shovel and digging the aluminum
ore out of the ground yourself...


Jerry
Ok, from top to bottom:
I meant hobbyists on the forum. I've been avoiding giving names so far, but this is focussed on the flaminpyro-Mohrenberg conflict so those are the ones i'll use. Do you think the tolerances vary between the two? I know that if i machined a heatsink (and i have - it's really fun, but the end result for me is always pretty much worthless) and charged the accepted price of cheap heatsinks complaints would be lodged pretty quickly. But do you think that there's a lot of difference between the work of Mohrenberg and the work of Flaminpyro? Maybe there is, i'm not really one to judge, but i am yet to be convinced.

Also, about the general marketplace, there are correlations but it's usually pay a little more to get it a little better. There probably is some difference between the work of the expensive machinists on here and the cheap ones, but enough difference to justify the huge price gap that exists?

Finally, i didn't say i would rather pay for just the parts (although i'm sure we all would ). My point was this. If (to use Trevor's example) Trevor values his time at $1 per minute and qumefox values his time at $2 per minute, it seems odd that Trevor would be machining heatsinks for money and a mystery why people would buy from him.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:27 PM #54
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaiNobeZ View Post
Ok, from top to bottom:
I meant hobbyists on the forum. I've been avoiding giving names so far, but this is focussed on the flaminpyro-Mohrenberg conflict so those are the ones i'll use. Do you think the tolerances vary between the two? I know that if i machined a heatsink (and i have - it's really fun, but the end result for me is always pretty much worthless) and charged the accepted price of cheap heatsinks complaints would be lodged pretty quickly. But do you think that there's a lot of difference between the work of Mohrenberg and the work of Flaminpyro? Maybe there is, i'm not really one to judge, but i am yet to be convinced.
I have no idea as I stated above... I have never purchased a
heatsink from either seller...


So you agree that experience and expertise makes a better
product..

I have no idea as I stated above... I have never purchased a
heatsink from either seller...


You are arguing a point about 2 specific sellers and you have
no basis to argue one side or the other...


My post above was about products produced in the marketplace
in general... and I have direct knowledge of those products
that we buy from different outside sources...

I'm not taking sides on this Heat Sink issue... I'm just stating
facts/experience as known to my business dealings in the
past >25 years about price and quality...


Jerry
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:32 PM #55
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaiNobeZ View Post
Ok, from top to bottom:
I meant hobbyists on the forum. I've been avoiding giving names so far, but this is focussed on the flaminpyro-Mohrenberg conflict so those are the ones i'll use. Do you think the tolerances vary between the two? I know that if i machined a heatsink (and i have - it's really fun, but the end result for me is always pretty much worthless) and charged the accepted price of cheap heatsinks complaints would be lodged pretty quickly. But do you think that there's a lot of difference between the work of Mohrenberg and the work of Flaminpyro? Maybe there is, i'm not really one to judge, but i am yet to be convinced.

Also, about the general marketplace, there are correlations but it's usually pay a little more to get it a little better. There probably is some difference between the work of the expensive machinists on here and the cheap ones, but enough difference to justify the huge price gap that exists?

Finally, i didn't say i would rather pay for just the parts (although i'm sure we all would ). My point was this. If (to use Trevor's example) Trevor values his time at $1 per minute and qumefox values his time at $2 per minute, it seems odd that Trevor would be machining heatsinks for money and a mystery why people would buy from him.
Well, since we've brought up the FP/Moh thing here...

I know one thing that FP does is machine a heatsink for a particular host. Not just for a model of host, but for a particular individual host. He will stand in front of the lathe and finesse it until it's a perfect fit for the exact host in front of him. Since the tolerances of Chinese flashlights are large (to say the least), I believe this adds a lot of value.

This, in addition to his experience on a lathe, is worth paying a premium for. In my opinion, at least. It takes time and will cost money.

Not sure what I'm arguing, but it was worth saying...

-Trevor
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:38 PM #56
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Like I said I have never purchased a heatsink from
either seller....
But there is logic in what you say about the tolerances
of the cheap Chinese hosts and the extra time that
each one would require to get a perfect fit for any
optimum heat transfer...


Jerry
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:57 PM #57
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
I have no idea as I stated above... I have never purchased a
heatsink from either seller...


So you agree that experience and expertise makes a better
product..

I have no idea as I stated above... I have never purchased a
heatsink from either seller...


You are arguing a point about 2 specific sellers and you have
no basis to argue one side or the other...


My post above was about products produced in the marketplace
in general... and I have direct knowledge of those products
that we buy from different outside sources...

I'm not taking sides on this Heat Sink issue... I'm just stating
facts/experience as known to my business dealings in the
past >25 years about price and quality...


Jerry
Teehee... colourful

There's a lot of confusion between what we're saying. I selected Mohrenberg and Flaminpyro (reluctantly - i didn't want to make it personal) because it's them that this conflict is between. Expertise and experience do make a better product, as do better tools (both would help in my case) but for heatsinks there's pretty well a functional cap once you've reached a certain degree of experience. I have my doubts that the best machinist in the world could produce a heatsink a huge amount better than those we already have. So my point, i guess, was that perhaps the magnitude of the effect of experience in turning heatsinks is exaggerated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
Well, since we've brought up the FP/Moh thing here...

I know one thing that FP does is machine a heatsink for a particular host. Not just for a model of host, but for a particular individual host. He will stand in front of the lathe and finesse it until it's a perfect fit for the exact host in front of him. Since the tolerances of Chinese flashlights are large (to say the least), I believe this adds a lot of value.

This, in addition to his experience on a lathe, is worth paying a premium for. In my opinion, at least. It takes time and will cost money.

Not sure what I'm arguing, but it was worth saying...

-Trevor
Thank you for saying this. Finally someone that's given me a good reason for a major price gap to exist! I guess I can vouch for Eudaimonium, though. He's all nice and cheap and he machines per-host. And his dad has a whole bunch of experience (i forget the number of years). The disadvantage: shipping too and from Croatia is so slow you might as well keep the host in your pocket and walk there.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:36 PM #58
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

The voice of experience recommends that y'all keep the discussion at the level of concepts (tolerances, machining, experience, costs, etc.) If y'all start calling names, the discussion will quickly devolve

Peace,
dave
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:53 PM #59
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

I think if you aren't making a unique product it is fair game...
When it comes to sellers, i buy from people i know: daguin, scopeguy, fp. I dont shop their prices. there are moh ppl and there are fp ppl. we should just leave it at that ( i know we wont, but we should). And if that doesn't make sense, oh well, i often don't =p

i dont buy machining from anybody here though, i design and my neighbor makes my heatsinks. I'm lucky that i am able to trade him for stuff i have that he needs too!!!
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:04 PM #60
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

That sounds awesome. Wish i had some fun neighbours.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:10 AM #61
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

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Old 07-13-2011, 07:59 AM #62
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In A State of Shock.
Posts: 11,871
Rep Power: 0
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Default Re: Pyro banned WTF!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qumefox View Post
And I didn't realize I was mad at anyone.
I thought you'd pick up up on who I was talking about.
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