Pyro banned WTF!?

The FDA actually did a "sting operation" against a laser hobbiest selling lasers to other laser hobbiests? (kinda scary) They should be watching out for E. Coli outbreaks, mad cow disease, etc. This is a relatively small segment of the population, that generally only sells to others within the same network.

Now that remind me of... What the China government said a while ago...
I think maybe 3 years ago? They have a shuttle that bring them to the moon, and they have this small probe with one man inside (not sure what it was called)...

When the Media ask the China government official "Do you think the whole inner and outer design of your probe look almost exactly like what the russian have twenty years ago?"

The Government official reply "I don't think they look the same at all! Maybe the only thing that looks the similar, is the seat in the middle, but please tell me which probe doesn't have a seat inside?"

Then I think the reporter didn't say anything else, and the camera just turn to another reporter with other questions.

qumefox said:

The way I see it, due simply to the way most DIY lasers are built here, there is little reason to get bent out of shape over things like someone else selling similar items.. Selling the same type of stuff is going to happen here. There are only so many types of wire, so many types of chargers, so many flashlights that look decent and are suitable for conversion to lasers, so many different ways to make heatsinks for said hosts, etc.. Granted there still isn't any reason to make exact duplicates. My sipiks are noticeably different from FP's tanks in assembly and appearance even though they're based on identical hosts. I even quit offering copper to help try to not step on any toes. (plus they take longer to machine heh, and I do good to keep the AL ones in stock)

This whole thing is just meh in my opinion. Yeah there's money involved, but it seems to me that good CS etc.. and NOT doing things like this is a lot more important than the products themselves.. since the products are inevitably going to be similar just due to the nature of what we're doing.

Click to expand...

There really is only so many flashlights that are suitable for lasers and easy to build heatsinks for. I am surprised every time I see someone get up in arms that someone else offers a heatsink for the same flashlight....they didnt design the flashlight and the heatsink is only an adapter.

There used to be a "gentleman's agreement" here that if one member designed, created, or marketed something, that the other members would avoid making one for sale or buying one from someone that did replicate the idea for sale.

For example, if member "A" designed a heat sink for the "Bobbies' Stanchion Torch", only Member "A" would sell the heat sink for that torch.

We were free to make one for ourselves. That's why the tradition of tutorials is here at all. We loved to share with everyone how to make one for themselves. However, no one else would make for resale that particular model of torch. It was considered the intellectual property of member "A". Only Member "A" would sell that heat sink to the NooB's that were unwilling or unable to build one themselves.

As the membership changed from mostly DIY'ers to mostly what Hemlock Mike refers to as "appliance operators" that respect for intellectual property has dissolved.

The membership now believes that anything posted in the forum is fair game for them to duplicate to make a buck off of. With the advent of these types of members, the number of tutorials has significantly dimished AND many (maybe most) of the "gentlemen" have either left the forum or have gone inactive here.

As a professor who deals with the concepts of intellectual property regularly, I lament the change. I have watched some amazing, creative, and generous minds vanish from our midst.

As a moderator of a successful forum, I see that there are apparently infinitely more appliance operators than there are gentlemen in the world.

Peace,
dave

Extremely well put Dave.

Some of the gentlemen are still here..... but they don't feel like
having their ideas ripped off to put non shared profits into the
pockets of appliance operators...

That eventually equals self protection and less self invested R&D
freely shared tutorials...

I hear a lot of "yeah but I'm a member here I should get it at cost"
or even recently by PM... "you got any free LPMs ?"...:crackup:


Jerry

lasersbee:935382 said:

or even recently by PM... "you got any free LPMs ?"...

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What!?! Man, some people got balls. Wasn't there a member recently sending PMs to a lot of people just asking for free stuff? That kind of stuff just blows me away.

lasersbee said:

Some of the gentlemen are still here..... but they don't feel like
having their ideas ripped off to put non shared profits into the
pockets of appliance operators...

That eventually equals self protection and less self invested R&D
freely shared tutorials...

I hear a lot of "yeah but I'm a member here I should get it at cost"
or even recently by PM... "you got any free LPMs ?"...:crackup:


Jerry

Click to expand...

Agreed. Along with the reduction of tutorials, has come a "protectionist" attitude. I certainly do not blame people from protecting their sources now.

I have been know to expend MANY hours and often hundreds of dollars researching where to get salvaged and surplus gas lasers. My searches were not always successful. It is dissapointing to have spent $400 to have a piece of equipment shipped just to figure out that only the "LF" model has the laser in it and this one is an "LG" model

I used to post tutorials and even specific pieces if said piece was out of my reach. Now in response to the inquiry "Where do you get these?" I usually just respond, "Old Medical Equipment."

Peace,
dave

daguin said:

Agreed. Along with the reduction of tutorials, has come a "protectionist" attitude. I certainly do not blame people from protecting their sources now.

I have been know to expend MANY hours and often hundreds of dollars researching where to get salvaged and surplus gas lasers. My searches were not always successful. It is dissapointing to have spent $400 to have a piece of equipment shipped just to figure out that only the "LF" model has the laser in it and this one is an "LG" model

I used to post tutorials and even specific pieces if said piece was out of my reach. Now in response to the inquiry "Where do you get these?" I usually just respond, "Old Medical Equipment."

Peace,
dave

Click to expand...

I remember the hundreds of dollars you spent on Brand New
high cost Drives to get at the 405nm LDs just to show the
members here how it's done and what to look out for...
You were the Drive decapitator guru.... (still are...IMO )

The Forum had less members then with members openly sharing
data without fear of it being stolen for profit....
And we had a lot less outstretched hands and a lot less business
going on...

Ahhh... the good old days.....

Jerry

Maybe LPF should step in and enforce some form of intellectual protection.

I see no reason for people to deliberately copy someone else.
If your good at what you do there should be no reason to have to take someone's else idea.

There are plenty of flashlights at DX that can be used for a host. Almost all of them can be used. Some may just involve a little more complexity in how the heatsink is made or how it is assembled.
If your good with a lathe and want to offer a host on LPF. You need to spend the time and money to find something you like. Something that will be unique to you and your style.

From time to time, you will have the occasional host that another builder may have in his line up. Like the SH-032. It's one of the only few shiny chrome 18650 hosts on DX. Currently 2 members offer it. Yet they both make different style heatsinks for it. More importantly they have come to a agreement on both of them offering it.

Maybe the least we can do is reserve the pro shop for any sellers who can offer a one of a kind unique host. If someone feels the need to copy someone's host. They can use the b/s/t thread.

As far as the influx of new members asking for free or greatley reduced prices. This is just seems how ''some but not all'' of the younger genertaion is. Seems with each new generation there is more and more who feel a sense of entitlement.
Nothing new as this is what I heard older people say about my generation. Now I'm saying it at 38

The mods generally have enough to do without becoming IP laywers as well.. Because if it's done there will be 'I did it first!' or 'But mine's different' arguments from both sides in any dispute..

Plus, it'd really only apply to heatsinks or entirely custom made hosts. Flashlights themselves are actually someone elses IP entirely (the flashlight manufacturers) and can't really be 'claimed' by any party.

And this will probably get me flamed but i'm not really a fan of 'gentlemen's agreements' either. It's pretty much the same thing as saying 'Here, have your own monopoly on this host' and it's very anti-competitive, especially to 'late comers' in the game so to speak.

I am a firm believer in the free market.. No i'm not saying it's right for people to make exact duplicates of someone elses work just to make a dollar. There's still plenty of room for creativity.. and blatantly copying other people's stuff just shows a lack of thinking and initiative, which is actually a fairly clear sign that the seller is just after money and doesn't really 'care' anyway and these people should be avoided due to the likelihood of getting screwed over..

However.. I don't think it's fair to fault people for making products using the same host as someone else already uses either.

Some people like me.. rely on laser related sales to help pay the bills after all.. and not use the money to buy more 'toys'

And pretty much every 'flashlight' out there.. someone sells some kind of kit for these days.. so if these 'monopolies' were upheld, I wouldn't have anything to sell.

qumefox with that being said thats fine.

We can still keep the pro shop open to anyone who has rep and a original, unique or different product.

The b/s/t section is more open to similar or even identical items.
We can have people selling the same identical item just in different threads. Also just because one person might have a similar item for sale in the b/s/t thread. Does not mean that same seller is barred from selling anything in the pro shop, as long as said individual has the rep and community acceptance. Anything they can offer that is unique can be sold there

Now thats not to say that each seller on LPF should not try and somehow make what they sell different or unique.

You qumefox sell a tank007 host that is similar to flaminpyro. However you did discuss it with him even if you did not need his approval or permission. You at least discussed it with him.
Also your tank007 is very unique with the way the heatsink is made and how it is assembled. So unique that if some other member started selling the exact same host right down to every detail. I'm sure you would at least be upset or offended in someway.

If a LPF member wants to sell a host thats is already being used. Do what you can to put your own twist on the design. Simpler more complex, a different shape of the heatsink, whatever.

I do not believe the sense of entitlement to low prices or free items held by the "newer generation" should be catered to.

I do not believe the sense of entitlement to a monopoly held by someone who machines the first heatsink should be catered to.

If I am producing aluminum heatsinks for the Cree X-P-G-Q-BR549 SuperDuperAwesomeBeamFireStarter flashlight by ChinaLEDCompanyPewPewPewFlashlightSunFire and qumefox starts machining copper heatsinks with tighter tolerances than me, should his product be squelched merely because I was doing it first? Or is it my responsibility to excel above his level rather than force this noob (qumefox you NOOB! ) to stop producing what is really my product?

At the end of the day, the sellers want a sellers' market and the buyers want a buyers' market.

I don't really feel like I've earned the right to have a well-formed opinion on this topic though, not having really experienced it myself. The above thoughts are worth what you paid for them...

-Trevor

Trevor said:

Cree X-P-G-Q-BR549 SuperDuperAwesomeBeamFireStarter flashlight by ChinaLEDCompanyPewPewPewFlashlightSunFire

Click to expand...

Link please, I wanna make a heat sink for it

I forget who said it, but if you make something hard to copy chances are it won't be.

Make whole hosts, not heatsinks. It's been proven time and time again that people will pay more for quality purpose built laser hosts. Besides, you can get so creative with an entire host there is entirely no reason for someone to copy someone's design.

We tried the intellectual property thing as Dave said. It didn't work. Besides, how much thought or designing actually goes into making a heatsink" It's really quite simple, 12mm through hole and outer profile matched to the flashlight. There is no way to change the shape of the heatsink in most cases. If you are being undersold your charging too much.

Shuffling "original" and "knockoff" heatsinks/hosts into different boards is pointless. Where do you draw the line? Could I remake every single heatsink being sold in the "pro" shop as a direct press fit heatsink and claim it as a new or different heatsink? Could I just add a second set screw for the module and claim better aixiz "module retention" properties? It would never work, plain and simple.

So, I go back to my original statement. Make something unique, to the point that it's hard or cost ineffective for someone else to copy. If someone somehow manages to copy you than adapt (by lowering prices) or quit selling.

rpaloalto said:

So unique that if some other member started selling the exact same host right down to every detail. I'm sure you would at least be upset or offended in someway.

Click to expand...

Possibly. but the sipik heatsinks are a bit more complicated than metal slugs with 12mm holes and a setscrew too. If someone else can make them cheaper than I sell them for, more power to them heh. Especially someone with a manual lathe. I think they'd find them quickly not worth the effort. Just like I have.. Future runs of them will likely be farmed out to shops with CNC equipment heh. And if I can afford to order them in enough quantity, my pricing on them may drop somewhat as well too.

I also have some very.. unique... fully machined hosts in the works too heh. But i'm not letting that cat out of the bag until I get things finalized and see if they'll be cost effective to actually make. Since I doubt people will want $600 hosts for example heh.