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07-03-2009, 07:34 AM #449
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Re: LPF's Religion

I get what you guys are saying as far as "unlikely things still happen", but you're missing the guy's point when it comes to the size of the numbers you're dealing with. You're calling out the chances of winning the lottery as if that's in any way close to something that has a 1 in 10^113 chance of happening. You can't fathom how big that number is.

Think of it this way, there are probably only about 10^80 atoms in the entire UNIVERSE. ATOMS, here, only 10^80 in the whole observable universe. Think about that, really think about how big that number is. People just don't "get" how big exponential numbers get. 1 in 10^113 has absolutely nothing to do with lottery odds (I think powerball is something like 1 in 66mil, or 1 in 6.6*10^7?). That's tiny, that's miniscule,those are GREAT odds. Heck, there are about 5*10^21 atoms in a single drop of water. Seriously, think about what you're comparing: the number associated with winning the powerball is likened to a piece of metal that you would need a microscope to even see, while the number that he is talking about can be likened tonot just one entire UNIVERSe, but 10^30 UNIVERSES full of atoms! See what I'm getting at? It's massive, it's incomparable, and mathematics say that that result will never happen. Sure it always could, and current theory says it did, but you can't argue with the math here.

Absolutely, it is a freaking miracle that life exists, and that amino acids came out of the primordial ooze. Certainly a miracle. But it doesn't take a deity for the miracle to happen. You have to pick which argument you can actually win, and you can't argue that something with those odds is "likely to happen", that's a losing argument. My argument? The odds are wrong. I don't know enough about to subject to argue that point, but honestly, I don't think anyone knows enough about the conditions present way back then to accurately calculate the odds that way. That's an argument that's actually winnable.

And this whole discussion makes me think of a Farside, I think it's applicable...

Last edited by pullbangdead; 07-03-2009 at 07:39 AM.

07-03-2009, 08:42 PM #450
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Re: LPF's Religion

i understand what you are saying. the reason i didn't want to deal with the numbers is because, like you said, its arbitrary and beside the point.

1 in 10^113 chance of single event happening, now we have 10^80 atoms, each with that same chance, and they are interacting over billions of years, and how many molecular interactions happen every second?

and where does the number come from? spontaneous formation of protein under what conditions?

we've synthesized RNA molecules "spontaneously". That's because the process is favourable under the right conditions.

think about protein folding. of all the possible ways each bond can rotate, why does it fold into that specific shape (almost) every time?

think chemistry, not mathematics.

07-03-2009, 08:52 PM #451
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Re: LPF's Religion

I think you all should see these videos:

YouTube - Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
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07-03-2009, 09:18 PM #452
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Re: LPF's Religion

It happened.

07-04-2009, 03:07 AM #453
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Re: LPF's Religion

Hey if they have found life on Mars, which my magic 8 ball says "All signs point to yes." Then that means we found life right in our back yard, we didn't even have to leave our solar system. I think math has some answers and they are probability and fractals. Fractals show us the repetition in nature and probability shows is that most of the time we are going to land in the mean. Homo Sapiens Sapiens have only been here about 40,000 years. I mean we were not here when dinosaurs walked the earth. Life finds a way, even in the most inhospitable enviroments we find living orginisms. Whether or not we find other intelligent life in our universe only time will tell.

Jon
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07-06-2009, 04:46 AM #454
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Re: LPF's Religion

07-06-2009, 08:34 PM #455
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Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by cyparagon
hahaha oh wow

07-14-2009, 10:29 PM #456
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mgc8
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Re: LPF's Religion

I see this thread continues to be entertaining and somehow people still manage to find new funny pics and entertaining videos, kudos everyone (on all sides)!

However I am a little saddened to see anti-scientific propaganda seeping into the discussion, and from obviously intelligent people who should know better :-/

I won't say much about the theory of Evolution as it's been explained better by more capable people. I hope for their sake that anyone who still considers this fact debatable would not also debate the theory of Gravity (which in some sense has less proof that Evolution) and try flying off a tall building... There are videos here with ample links to exhaustive sources of documentation that explain it in everything from simple to technical terms that only an indoctrinated, clouded mind would be unable to grasp. So enough about that -- if you have a problem with a specific aspect feel free to ask, otherwise expressions like "it's only a theory" will severely degrade the respect for the poster.

A brief discussion about the so-called "mathematical" points brought up some posts back... unfortunately most of that seems copied directly from "creationist" propaganda (I am inclined to use a term starting with ID and ending with the appropriate greek-derived suffix that best describes "creation science", but I will abstain for now). Those numbers are for many intents and purposes wrong. I won't elaborate too much, for more information one is free to check sources such as this, but the core of the problem is that all those calculations assume a complicated, modern protein or cell should have appeared first. To make a simple analogy, imagine someone gives a 17th century peasant a bag filled with books and schematics for the building of a 747, and demand that he build it. Upon the obvious faliure, the conclusion is that humans can't build 747's... Yes, that's how stupid that assumption is; the initial forms of life that appeared had very little in common to modern versions, appart from perhaps the ability to grow and replicate, enough for us to not even consider them "life". Yes, it's impossible to make a 747 by shaking the components in a box; however it is very possible to make it if you start with a folded-paper plane and then work out the details over a few hundred years.

All these so-called arguments fail to consider that only a very simple, basic part needed "randomness" (not really random, but let's accept it for the sake of argument) to appear, the extraordinarily complex systems evolved from that via selection, which is anything but random!

Also a few clarifications: first of all, the part of science that deals with the origin of life is called "Abiogenesis", and it is not the same as Evolution! Each deals with specific fields; so if you have a problem with how life came to be in the first place, fine, debate Abiogenesis -- a younger yet quite strong field of study -- don't bring Evolution in the discussion as it has nothing to do with it. Second, the 1 in 10^50 probability is considered the limit for an event that "could have happened at least once already" given the size and the age of the Universe. Mathematically, any event with a probability greater than 0 is likely to happen, given enough time; it's just that the Universe is not yet old enough for events with lower probability to stand a mathematical chance. Attention -- that doesn't say anything about those events actually occuring! A specific event may have a chance of 1 in 10^10^10, but if it did happen already then it would be stupid to argue probabilities in front of the evidence, that's like saying that the particular hand in bridge (~1/10^12 chance) that you are holding is unreal because it had such a small probability! Oh, and while we're here, please stop quoting that darned "10^80 atoms in the Universe"! It really has nothing to do with anything... Those atoms can combine in virtually infinite ways -- consider this: only 100 atoms in all possible permutations will yield a number close to 10^158 (factorial(100)). Take 1000 atoms and the number is over 10^2500 (that one scrolls over your screen)... And that is only arranging them in a line, if you place them in 2D or 3D configurations... have fun calculating! So yeah, their total number means absolutely nothing.

Now, leaving all the technical details aside, I would like to bring a more philosophical argument in front of the "god fans", since I believe a debate on those terms is closer to the way one relates to whatever mystical entity they fancy. I say that because I used to be a quite strong supporter or religion a while back (oh, the days of youth) and I distinctly remember that scientific-based arguments never really struck a chord with me, it was the philosophical ones that eventually forced me to think and reevaluate my position (with all the revolution in thought that has brought since).

So here it goes -- how do you reconcile the existence of Yahweh (the judeo-christian-muslim god) and his alleged properties of kindness, goodness and all that with, I dunno, let's say amputated children from land-mines? Answer that with your theodicy of choice and we can start from there...

Before answering you might want to read this little gem (it's actually long, but definitely worth it!) and then explain how all that somehow fits into your view of the grand "creator"... Have fun!

Last edited by mgc8; 07-14-2009 at 10:48 PM.

07-15-2009, 12:28 AM #457
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Re: LPF's Religion

yep, natural progress happens gradually, not in big leaps
atoms don't come together to form amino acids, they form simple acids and aldehydes first.

seeing earth as an isolated system and ignoring the energy from the sun to argue that thermodynamics can't allow formation from chaos is like arguing against gravity by jumping up.

to echo mgc8's philosophical question: for evil/misfortune/injustice to happen in the world, God has to either be nonexistent, incapable of helping, indifferent to our suffering, or wants such things to happen. (there can't be a all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful God)

07-15-2009, 11:34 AM #458
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Re: LPF's Religion

Ehmm!!!! Faith
You either have it or you need it or you stumble across it sometime in your life...
small children who suffer the atrocity's of war and in there life were faithful are given favorable treatment in the lords holiest temple. It is there test in life.

We all have that mandate. Pick up the bible and read. Seems like the very intelligent people in this thread know allot about everything, but the living word... I would not be faithful if I respectfully didn't throw that out there. Humbly yours Jander6442

07-15-2009, 01:52 PM #459
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Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mgc8 ....
Dude, since when did we try to force our views and ways down your throat?
Man....It's a good thing us Christians are forgiving.

Oh yeah, almost forgot.

IT'S JUST A THEORY

What do you think of that!!! hahahahahaaa

Last edited by iskor12; 07-15-2009 at 02:03 PM.

07-15-2009, 02:53 PM #460
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Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jander6442 Faith
Now that's a very lame response, even if you write it with yellow capital letters, really; you're avoiding the question. What you're saying basicaly is that your oh-so-good-and-loving god has no reason whatsoever to maim an torture those kids except to test their faith?! What on Earth did they do to deserve something like that? I really like this part:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jander6442 small children who suffer the atrocity's of war and in there life were faithful are given favorable treatment in the lords holiest temple. It is there test in life.
So they will be given "favorable treatment" but only after they die (too bad if they are forced to live crippled for decades) and only if they were "faithful"! So if the poor souls happen to believe in the holy goat or whatever voodoo religion their tribe has, bad luck, they're gonna rot in hell for eternity! You really, sincerely believe that? And you call that god a "loving one"?! But what gives this goddy-good fellow the right to test people in this way? If children were "tested" like that in school, I bet a lot of parents would be at least a little upset and maybe demand to have a chat with the principal... Somehow if a human being would rip out the legs of another as a "test" it would be a criminal, heinous act. But not if it comes from goddy-god? Come on!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jander6442 Pick up the bible and read. Seems like the very intelligent people in this thread know allot about everything, but the living word...
What makes you think I haven't already read it? I did when I was a little child, and it struck me as an SF story about aliens coming to Earth in flaming chariots. I re-read it extensively as an adult and only found prejudice, immorality, and the garbled oral history of a few tribes wandering through the desert several thousand years ago. Frankly, there are far better mythologies out there, with a lot more entertainment and moral value. Did you read Tolkien? "The Silmarillion" for example is more beautiful, better written and even (heh) consistent. It strikes me that "god's word" falls way short of greatness in all possible ways.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by iskor12 Dude, since when did we try to force our views and ways down your throat?
Just about each and every day -- anyway, I really must have forgotten meeting you and forcibly pushing anything down your throat, it strikes me as something I'd remember but hey, my memory is not as good as it used to be...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by iskor12 Man....It's a good thing us Christians are forgiving.
Or... WHAT?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by iskor12 Oh yeah, almost forgot. IT'S JUST A THEORY
Good for you! Now pray tell, which of the characters from the above picture do you identify with?

Maybe someone more articulate could actually answer with something other than childish remarks? One can at least hope

07-15-2009, 04:24 PM #461
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Re: LPF's Religion

"Or... WHAT?"
I am not even going to bother responding to a Flamebaiting post like that.

"Maybe someone more articulate could actually answer with something other than childish remarks?"

I think Atheists can be dim bulb'd sometimes. I think some of them just like to hear themselves talk, like you for instance. I don't mind the people that admit it, like The Amazing Atheist. If you got an ego, great, but don't act like a friggen jack*ss.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

still hope,though,there was for me:
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Last edited by iskor12; 07-15-2009 at 09:19 PM.

07-15-2009, 05:12 PM #462
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Re: LPF's Religion

guys, evolution is a theory (so is gravity, i might add), but its not "just" a theory...
the court understands that and respects that, the debate on the validity of evolution has been over for a few decades now.

the goal of the religious now is not to argue against evolution, but to try to make religion coexist with science.

the court's decisions clearly state that it is unconstitutional to teach religion as science; they are completely different and they occupy different niches. One's for emotional comfort and the other is for knowledge and progress.

i believe religion and science can coexist, but that's only if the religious stop pushing creationism as literal facts.
Religion is supposed to be a beautiful story, a fascinating myth that gives people hope in dark times; teaching it as facts ruins the story.

Last edited by primary; 07-15-2009 at 05:14 PM.

07-15-2009, 05:23 PM #463
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Re: LPF's Religion

It's not just a story and It's not just a fascinating Myth. Time and Time again, the stories in the Bible have been "scientificly" proven to be true.

Some churches/denominations are saying that one day for God could be equal to a million years for us. This I do agree with. In this cases, some evolution theories could be true, but I still don't believe that US as Humans evolved from Apes. Also, if we are still evolving, since it's never ending, what are we going to turn into next? I find that this part of the Evolution THEORY is BOGUS.

Also, I don't care what the court has decided. My government doesn't make my discisions in life. Plus, I don't trust our government what so ever. Haven't you seen THE OBAMA Deception.

Last edited by iskor12; 07-15-2009 at 05:27 PM.

07-15-2009, 05:36 PM #464
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Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jander6442 It is there test in life.
Surely an omnipotent being would know the outcome of a test without even performing one.

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