Global Warming - Real Science?

Ice loss at the poles is a certainty. It could be that CO2 is produced as an effect of warming and more plant growth, but to bury our heads in the sand and just hope it turns out O.K. or to fight the idea with anecdotal evidence is not the solution. I live at about 1000 foot elevation, and see some possibility of being much closer to the beach in coming years. What will happen if billions of people are displaced by rising waters of the oceans? -Glenn

:banghead:


The mention of day-to-day and season-to-season temperatures as evidence in a thread decrying the "lack of science" in the current global warming debate is both sad and humorous.

Weather != Climate.

Asherz said:

I was going to go to that exact place for a sailing comp at christmas, I decided not too because it was too expensive and I've gone into the adult class now, but there were a few friends that went over.

How weird

link to the comp: Cadet Worlds at Buenos Aires, Argentina - Day 2 - Yachts and Yachting Online

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Are you kidding me? Maybe the trip was expensive, but if you come down here, you'll be able to buy anything you want. Your money is worth FOUR times more in Argentina (approx. $3,89). You can eat at a great restaurant for 20-30 bucks. If you stay in hostels, you'll be paying like 6-10 dollars a day.

i'm glad to see multiple sides. i believe global warming is real. the level of CO2 in the atmosphere compared to pass natural cycles have a huge gap. all full combustion releases CO2. CO2 doesn't rip holes in our ozone though, that's the CFL or chlorofloural carbons. something like that. (from aerosols and stuff). i think the molecules break down O3 easily. There is no "hole", but there is a thinning of ozone.

i'm not saying be obsessed with going green, but most people waste A LOT. you ever walk by and see loads of wasted food in the trash? just go to a park, beach, hell even the back room of a restaurant. many people dont recycle. if people print a messed up document from their printer they just throw it away, but later when they need scratch paper they use a fresh white printer paper. there are so many ways in which people waste. i for one ain't 100% efficient either cuz i'm only human, but the amount i waste is far less. i always finish my plate of food 99% of the time because if i'm eating meat i know something had to die for it. if it's veges it's still food someone less fortunate could've had. i think we as humans still have to do our part in reducing land fills and pollution.

In b4 Manbearbig.

Regional climate change has always been ongoing. Higher temperatures in some areas are often balanced by cooling in other areas. This is why I asked this question here, because we have members from all over the world. Much of the USA is cold right now - moreso than ever.
Retreating glaciers happens --- Much of North America was covered in ice long ago and there weren't enough SUVs then to cause the warming. I've heard that somewhere, glaciers are building.
Too, I believe that the northern ice cap is floating - We have gone under it with subs. If floating, it displaces its own mass and won't cause flooding when it melts. Same with ice floating in a full glass of water.

HMike

Hemlock_Mike said:

Regional climate change has always been ongoing. Higher temperatures in some areas are often balanced by cooling in other areas. This is why I asked this question here, because we have members from all over the world. Much of the USA is cold right now - moreso than ever.
Retreating glaciers happens --- Much of North America was covered in ice long ago and there weren't enough SUVs then to cause the warming. I've heard that somewhere, glaciers are building.
Too, I believe that the northern ice cap is floating - We have gone under it with subs. If floating, it displaces its own mass and won't cause flooding when it melts. Same with ice floating in a full glass of water.

HMike

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The ice on top of Greenland and Antarctica isn't floating, not in the least. That ice is on land, and will affect sea levels if it melts.

But it isn't just ice melting either, simple thermal expansion of the water will increase sea levels as well. If the earth gets warmer, seas will rise, because water expands with heat.

Does climate change on its own, without human influences? Absolutely, it has happened and will continue to happen forever.

But can humans change the climate as well? Absolutely, we certainly can. I'm not so arrogant to think that humans are the only thing that can change climate, but I'm also not so naive as to think it's impossible for humans to change climate.

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And since you mention it, it's unseasonably warm here in California this week, the high today is about 72F. It's cold elsewhere, and it's above average here. But again, none of this really has anything to do with climate, because the time scales are completely off-base.

Thank you pullbangdead, you summed up my response perfectly.

-Mark

First of all, I want to thank you who have posted for not reverting to name calling and insults. Opinions on this vary widely in this matter and I analyze all replies as I hope others do.

When I was a kid (1960ish) there was a doom sayer fortelling the comming ice age return and indeed, winters for me were bad. There were also those who said that we would run out of oil by 1980 -- -well maybe 1990... etc The fortelling of pending doom has been a common thread all my life and now the Ozone hole, Y2K and global warming are just a continuation of these people who seem to make a living with their questionable preaching. Just watch as 2012 draws closer :tinfoil:.

Long ago, we used to "seed" hurricanes at sea to prevent damage and we learned that we were affecting short term weather in the mid-states by stopping the SE winds with their moisture. This was stopped years ago and the effects stopped quickly. However, the hurricane forecasts, based on the globle warming ideas aren't coming true, indeed just the opposite - but recent history.

CO2 is a minor part of the "green house gas formula" with water vapor being the more controling factor causing clouds for shade and blankets at night. I don't believe that any program simulating earth climate has accounted for this.

Lastly --- $$$$ --- Funding----
There are more paid studies supporting global warming than there have been to show the opposite. If you pay scientists to support an idea, you will get reports supporting what was paid for. This happens in small local governments too. $$$ = Bias.

HMike

Ultimately we have two choices here. Number one: we reduce carbon emissions. This costs trillions of dollars, and results in LOTS of economic hardship. Number two: we wait and see what happens. I highly doubt most of the speculative repercussions are sound.

It seems to me, a reactive approach is best when we don't know for sure that a proactive approach (especially when it is exceedingly expensive) will do much of anything.

denton808 said:

There is no "hole" [in the ozone layer]

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Oh but there is. See this wikipedia article

Cypar ---

I think the "green" approach is a good idea. We don't need to rape the planet although it will continue elsewhere for many years. Mans' soft impact should be reduced. Clean water will be the biggest problem soon enough.

The Ozone hole, while big news for a while, goes on. Scientific American reported years ago that the phases of the sun are the most controling factor on this elusive cloud -- sometimes building it and sometimes reducing it. There will always be a hole because it is a magnetic cloud over a magnetic pole.

HMike

ETA: And see, me and Mike agree on the "green" approach. Most reasonable people agree on most of the issues, despite what TV political hacks tell us everyday.

Cyparagon said:

Ultimately we have two choices here. Number one: we reduce carbon emissions. This costs trillions of dollars, and results in LOTS of economic hardship. Number two: we wait and see what happens. I highly doubt most of the speculative repercussions are sound.

It seems to me, a reactive approach is best when we don't know for sure that a proactive approach (especially when it is exceedingly expensive) will do much of anything.



Oh but there is. See this wikipedia article

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Cyparagon: I think you've fallen into a bit of a fallacy with regards to "things we should be doing", one that a LOT of smart people fall into.

See, "climate change" doesn't require any unique solution. There is another reason to do every single thing that "climate change" requires of us.

It's funny, global warming has turned into the strawman of environmentalism. There are umpteen reasons to ween ourselves off of oil, there are umpteen reasons to not use coal for electricity production, there are umpteen reasons to not use natural gas, there are umpteen reasons to plant trees and stop clearcutting forests. These are all the things we should be doing if global warming is truly a problem, but there are umpteen OTHER reasons to be doing every one of things things.

The biggest of course, is oil. We cut our dependence on oil, and we cut our dependence on the middle east, and we can tell all the OPEC countries and the entire middle east where they can shove whatever they'd like to shove in that place.

-Our economy loses that anchor known as gas prices that, at times, drags the entire thing down, often at the whim of a tyrant.

-We stop pumping oil out of the ground and scaring the landscape.

-We stop putting all the OTHER pollutants into the air (smog, acid rain, the examples are plentiful).

-We are never in danger of running out of oil if we stop using it (I see what you mean Mike about people saying "we're about to run out" for a long time, but the fact is, oil is finite. Since it is finite, it HAS to run out sometime, even If i don't know when that is.).

-In addition to unsavory countries, we can stop dealing with unsavory companies, and tell Exxon where they can shove whatever it is they'd like to shove in that place (I personally have no problem with Exxon as a company, but I understand some of you probably do).

-We stop with spills like the Valdez and the thousands of other leaks that have occurred over the decades all over the world.

See? All GREAT things we can do for our country(ies) and for our world, that have nothing to do with global warming, but those things get torn down anyway because of the distraction of global warming. People mention oil, and global warming comes up, when really there are all these other reasons to recycle, and to turn your lights off, and to carpool to use less gas, and to buy the Energy Star appliance over the non-Energy Star appliance, and the list goes on and on.

The other ight parts are on youtube. I promise it's worth watching it. I believe about the 70% of it.

We are also in a solar minimum.

NASA - Spotless Sun: Blankest Year of the Space Age