Welcome to Laser Pointer Forums - discuss green laser pointers, blue laser pointers, and all types of lasers

LPF Donation via Stripe | LPF Donation - Other Methods

Links below open in new window

ArcticMyst Security by Avery

Do you think you have a solution to the oil spill?

mfo

mfo

0
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
3,394
Points
0
I think I may have a solution. Sure it's probably a long shot, but at least I tried. Please refer to the attached zip file and tell me what you guys think (open the read_me.html file). I submitted my idea to the company, hopefully it'll be of use? I'm probably just dreaming big though as I really wish this spill would stop spewing already.

Alternative Technology Response Form

So, what do you guys think?
 

Attachments

  • oil.zip
    30.7 KB · Views: 54





pullbangdead

pullbangdead

0
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
2,007
Points
63
Here's an applicable quote from the famous Bill Nye (who actually is an engineer/scientist by the way, he has a degree from Cornell and worked for Boeing before becoming a comedian):

"the people working on these problems are engineers, these are people
who nominally can do calculus, people who are very good at physics,
people who’ve studied chemistry, people who have dedicated their lives
to learning about nature, to learning about science, to learning about
the process by which we understand the world."

The people working on this are experts.

------------------------------

Now as to your suggestion: you're trying to stick a band-aid on the end of a fire hose. I highly recommend you take at look at the real math involved in this. All the information is available: the water pressure down there, the pressure of the oil coming out of the well, the real capabilities of underwater robotics, the real strength of metals and welds at these conditions, etc. Do some math to go with your Paint, and get back to us.

Here's a head start:

Bottom hole pressure has been stated around 12-13,000 psi, the fluid in the well behaves as a single phase supercritical fluid with a density of about 0.7, 13000 foot of static column for sea floor to bottom hole, bottom of ocean is about 2200 psi at 5000 feet depth.

12000 psi less column head of about 4,000 psi yields about 8,000 psi pushing up against the mesh cap or whatever plug you have in mind. Ocean water is about 2200 psi pushing down against the cap. That leaves about 6,000 psi net pushing up.

If the pipe opening is about 20 inches diameter => 314 in2. or 2,000,000 lb force pushing up.

Can your metal mesh and welds on a 20 inch pipe hold 2 million pounds of force?
 
Last edited:
photonaholic

photonaholic

0
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
2,738
Points
63
I have thought of this...

Take an inflatable bladder like the air jacks they use in emergency situations to lift buses and large trucks off of crash victims, maybe even make the rubber 3 times thicker, put this on the end of a pipe and insert it into the well , push it down 100-200+ feet and inflate it with intense pressure to expand it inside the pipe.

even if this only stopped it temporarily, they could then inject wet cement into the well above it and let it cure.

If this could handle extreme PSI ratings it should work.

I was talking with a friend who thinks this sludge will eventually start washing up on beaches all over the USA.

the whole thing makes me want to puke.
 
mfo

mfo

0
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
3,394
Points
0
pullbangdead said:
Here's an applicable quote from the famous Bill Nye (who actually is an engineer/scientist by the way, he has a degree from Cornell and worked for Boeing before becoming a comedian):

"the people working on these problems are engineers, these are people
who nominally can do calculus, people who are very good at physics,
people who’ve studied chemistry, people who have dedicated their lives
to learning about nature, to learning about science, to learning about
the process by which we understand the world."

The people working on this are experts.

------------------------------

Now as to your suggestion: you're trying to stick a band-aid on the end of a fire hose. I highly recommend you take at look at the real math involved in this. All the information is available: the water pressure down there, the pressure of the oil coming out of the well, the real capabilities of underwater robotics, the real strength of metals and welds at these conditions, etc. Do some math to go with your Paint, and get back to us.

Here's a head start:

Bottom hole pressure has been stated around 12-13,000 psi, the fluid in the well behaves as a single phase supercritical fluid with a density of about 0.7, 13000 foot of static column for sea floor to bottom hole, bottom of ocean is about 2200 psi at 5000 feet depth.

12000 psi less column head of about 4,000 psi yields about 8,000 psi pushing up against the mesh cap or whatever plug you have in mind. Ocean water is about 2200 psi pushing down against the cap. That leaves about 6,000 psi net pushing up.

If the pipe opening is about 20 inches diameter => 314 in2. or 2,000,000 lb force pushing up.

Can your metal mesh and welds on a 20 inch pipe hold 2 million pounds of force?
Click to expand...

Just because you can do calculus doesn't mean you have common sense.

photonaholic said:
I have thought of this...

Take an inflatable bladder like the air jacks they use in emergency situations to lift buses and large trucks off of crash victims, maybe even make the rubber 3 times thicker, put this on the end of a pipe and insert it into the well , push it down 100-200+ feet and inflate it with intense pressure to expand it inside the pipe.

even if this only stopped it temporarily, they could then inject wet cement into the well above it and let it cure.

If this could handle extreme PSI ratings it should work.

I was talking with a friend who thinks this sludge will eventually start washing up on beaches all over the USA.

the whole thing makes me want to puke.
Click to expand...

That's actually a good idea. Did you try submitting it?
 
pullbangdead

pullbangdead

0
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
2,007
Points
63
mfo said:
Just because you can do calculus doesn't mean you have common sense.



That's actually a good idea. Did you try submitting it?
Click to expand...

Did you just stop reading at "calculus" and not read the rest of it?
 
charliebruce

charliebruce

0
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
1,506
Points
48
mfo said:
Just because you can do calculus doesn't mean you have common sense.
Click to expand...

Common sense *cannot* be applied in the extreme environment down there - everything you think you know about materials changes, and the forces are absolutely incredible. In your specific idea, as the mesh holes get smaller, the velocity of the flow of oil through them gets much higher - and that leads to some very odd erosion forces. The combination of high flow and high pressure can also produce cavitation (something common sense cannot explain unless you work on submarines) which is pretty nasty, not to mention the fact that you're working with two immiscible fluids of different densities. Unless you know, understand and take into account all of these factors, your solution can't be taken seriously by professionals. This is very much not just a stream of fluid like a leaky pipe in a city (have you dried to push your finger down a hosepipe and stop it flowing like that? You will find, if it's a relatively powerful one, you can actually burn yourself by doing this...)
 
Last edited:
pullbangdead

pullbangdead

0
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
2,007
Points
63
charliebruce said:
Common sense *cannot* be applied in the extreme environment down there - everything you think you know about materials changes, and the forces are absolutely incredible. In your specific idea, as the mesh holes get smaller, the velocity of the flow of oil through them gets much higher - and that leads to some very odd erosion forces. The combination of high flow and high pressure can also produce cavitation (something common sense cannot explain unless you work on submarines) which is pretty nasty, not to mention the fact that you're working with two immiscible fluids of different densities. Unless you know, understand and take into account all of these factors, your solution can't be taken seriously.
Click to expand...

clapping.gif
 
charliebruce

charliebruce

0
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
1,506
Points
48
Is that applause sarcastic or genuine? :p

If you're still interested mfo, cavitation is the force that damages submarine propellers and is created when you have regions of intense high and low pressure - it "burns" the propeller tips, and creates huge amounts of heat. That is (part of - apart from standard friction) the actual reason your solution (and others along the same line) won't work.
 
Last edited:
Raybo

Raybo

0
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Messages
537
Points
18
+1 for you PBD, and I think I owe you a LOT more than a measely + ONE!

You have a great mind IMHO.:shhh:

Ray
 
pullbangdead

pullbangdead

0
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
2,007
Points
63
charliebruce said:
Is that applause sarcastic or genuine? :p

If you're still interested mfo, cavitation is the force that damages submarine propellers and is created when you have regions of intense high and low pressure - it "burns" the propeller tips, and creates huge amounts of heat. That is (part of - apart from standard friction) the actual reason your solution (and others along the same line) won't work.
Click to expand...

Completely genuine.

Cavitation was another problem I hadn't even thought of. The engineering hurdles with this problem are staggering, and way beyond things that most people even think about.

Another analogy: when your appendix bursts, do you want your doctors going to an internet site reading suggestions about what they should do, or do you want them to do what they've spent their entire lives preparing for/practicing for/doing: fixing the human body?
 
Pontiacg5

Pontiacg5

0
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
2,494
Points
0
My idea includes a giant funnel, a huge pump, and a filter of some sort.

Needless to say, I doubt my idea would work :D
 
pullbangdead

pullbangdead

0
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
2,007
Points
63
Pontiacg5 said:
My idea includes a giant funnel, a huge pump, and a filter of some sort.

Needless to say, I doubt my idea would work :D
Click to expand...

A giant inverted funnel (shaped more like a top hat apparently, but the idea is the same) is essentially what they have tried twice, but they have now gone to a smaller "cap" funnel thing attached over the well right now, attempting to catch escaping oil. But it's still basically the same idea, an extremely complicated and (hopefully) well-engineered funnel.

But more examples of the extreme environment: this new "funnel" oil-catcher works better than the first two they tried because they essentially pump anti-freeze into it to keep the methane from freezing solid into methane hydrate. Methane, a gas up here where we are, forms a SOLID with water down there, and that solid floats in water. The solid methane hydrate floated up, clogging the funnel, and actually making it buoyant, picking it up off the sea floor and allowing oil to escape from underneath in addition to clogging the tube. Their new design alleviates a lot of this, hopefully, and is amazingly complicated to try and make it actually work. It's been in place a couple of days now, we should know soon how well it is working.

Another crazy problem: the gases they collect down there expand as they come up due to pressure changes. The gases on their way up expand to 140 times original volume. This produces extreme adiabatic cooling, as well as REALLY screwing with the pressures and velocities of the stuff coming up the pipes. The engineers doing all this are 100% used to it and know exactly how to handle it, while Average Joe probably can't even spell adiabatic cooling.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.




Top