Bullfighting

I would like to know what do you guys think about bullfighting. I will only give my personal opinion once most of you have already spoken since I don't want my opinion to condition your answers

The reason I'm asking this is because as you may know this is an old tradition is Spain and I'd like to know what do people outside here think about it, nothing else

And so, there's a poll so I can keep the tracking.

PLEASE, DON'T inform yourselves on wikipedia or anywhere else to post, I want to know your opinion right now, not the opinion after reading about it. If you just don't know what to say, don't say nothing

No. It should be banned. Same with cockfighting, people who practise it should be imprisoned for animal cruelty and people who go watch them should get a biga$$ fine.

I'd rather they kill some guy in front of 50.000 people than a defenseless bull.
Same with people that hunt, nothing says so little about your manhood than "Hey I could kill a cow with a sniper from 2 miles away, awesome I'm so badass!".

nikokapo said:

I'd rather they kill some guy in front of 50.000 people than a defenseless bull.
Same with people that hunt, nothing says so little about your manhood than "Hey I could kill a cow with a sniper from 2 miles away, awesome I'm so badass!".

Click to expand...

I agree with you about animal cruelty, but in my mind people are superior to animals and thus more valuable. I would kill an animal immediately if I thought it would benefit a person somehow. Hunting for food not recreation is perfectly acceptable IMO, in some areas of the world it is the only way to survive. It is also part of nature, that why there is such a thing as a food chain. If you apply your logic to all animals (which is the only logical course if you feel somehow that people are more expendable than animals), then the lion that killed an antelope for dinner last night should feel very ashamed.

If through some twisted course of events I had to choose between someone killing a bull or killing my daughter, what do you think I would choose? What do you think the parent of the person you'd rather see killed than a "poor defenseless bull" would think about that? Let's get real people, don't take this "animal cruelty" think so far that you would rather see people be killed than animals, that's absolutely absurd. I would rather see every bull on earth die a slow painful death than a single hair of my child's head be harmed. Once you have a child, you'll know how I feel.

nikokapo said:

No. It should be banned. Same with cockfighting, people who practise it should be imprisoned for animal cruelty and people who go watch them should get a biga$$ fine.

I'd rather they kill some guy in front of 50.000 people than a defenseless bull.
Same with people that hunt, nothing says so little about your manhood than "Hey I could kill a cow with a sniper from 2 miles away, awesome I'm so badass!".

Click to expand...

Yeah....
and people who eat chicken and hamburgers should be shot...
There goes McDonalds.....
[/sarcastic]

Like EF stated... I'm against it for Entertainment....
but can accept it for survival.
I'll always choose humans over animals if it comes down to
that (even if they're human)...


Jerry

I don't really care about it.. I don't think I would ever watch it myself as the entertainment value seems tiny - I have been offered to go to a fight many times when I have been in Spain and declined every time - but to be honest I don't care about the bulls enough to want it banned either.
With animals I tend to, with a few exceptions, only care about them being killed or not if I have some sort of connection with them (they are my pet, a friend's pet or something like that).
I eat too much meat to be able to worry about a random animal dying, even if that animal suffers for some time before.

Seb

ElektroFreak said:

I agree with you about animal cruelty, but in my mind people are superior to animals and thus more valuable. I would kill an animal immediately if I thought it would benefit a person somehow. Hunting for food not recreation is perfectly acceptable IMO, in some areas of the world it is the only way to survive. It is also part of nature, that why there is such a thing as a food chain. If you apply your logic to all animals (which is the only logical course if you feel somehow that people are more expendable than animals), then the lion that killed an antelope for dinner last night should feel very ashamed.

If through some twisted course of events I had to choose between someone killing a bull or killing my daughter, what do you think I would choose? What do you think the parent of the person you'd rather see killed than a "poor defenseless bull" would think about that? Let's get real people, don't take this "animal cruelty" think so far that you would rather see people be killed than animals, that's absolutely absurd. I would rather see every bull on earth die a slow painful death than a single hair of my child's head be harmed. Once you have a child, you'll know how I feel.

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There I have to stop you for the same thing I'm saying down there v
Your child is innocent regarding the bullfighting, I was talking about people who go see fights, etc. Let's not compare pigs to bananas here.

lasersbee said:

Yeah....
and people who eat chicken and hamburgers should be shot...
There goes McDonalds.....
[/sarcastic]

Like EF stated... I'm against it for Entertainment....
but can accept it for survival.
I'll always choose humans over animals if it comes down to
that (even if they're human)...


Jerry

Click to expand...

You both went to the obvious, old, "I kill animals for food" topic. I never said the animal was being killed to be eaten. Yes, the bull gets eaten after killed in bullfighting, but it's not the main purpose, the killing is more important than the eating there.

For survival you just need to follow the pyramid and it's all good, bigger fish eat smaller fish.

Hunting is mostly for entertainment nowadays, don't come tell me 90% of hunters are alone in some island and they need to hunt for food, because that's not true.

ALL humans and the cultures/societies they have created make up a hierarchical list of life.

We take all the living (and some non-living) things and place them in order on this hierarchy. Keep in mind that plants, bacteria, virii, and insects are also life.

Once we have the hierarchy listed, we begin to draw "lines" on that hierarchy. The lines are arbitrary and dynamic. They are different for different people/cultures/societies. Some of them can include:

Things which must be protected at all costs
Things for which I would trade my life
Things that can be killed if they are threatening me
Things that can be killed if they are threatening an innocent
Things that can be killed for food
Things that can be killed for the health of the herd
Things that can be killed if it is bothering me
Things that can be killed if it is a pest
Things that can be killed for fun
Things that SHOULD be killed because they are a threat to me
Things that should be killed because they are scary looking
Things that should be killed because they are invading my space
Things which MUST be killed to protect me
Things which must be killed to protect my species
Things which must be killed to protect the environment


You will probably have different ones, but we ALL have them. Do this for yourself and you will learn much about yourself and your culture. Do this for yourself and you will begin to understand that ALL of the lines are arbitrary and capricious. Do this for yourself and you will begin to understand that your lines are only "better" because you believe in them

Then look up the word; ethnocentrism

Peace,
dave

^Excellent way to put this in perspective!

nikokapo said:

I'd rather they kill some guy in front of 50.000 people than a defenseless bull.

Click to expand...

Hmm.. read that again, and if you mean it, aknowledge you might have a problem...

On the actual bullfighting: i wouldn't do it myself, but if others want to, i will not stand in their way either. I reckon the bull is actually eaten after being killed in this tradition, which makes it little more than a form of ritual butchery.

From the bulls perspective: those are bread to be killed for food in the first place. Perhaps it'll enjoy having a go at a guy with a red cloth before its life ends - who knows.

I can see different people place their line at different levels...
I know where mine is... although the above example actually has
three separate lists that require a line each....(at least for me)..

@niko.... there are no bullfights in Canada... so I guess it's not my
place to put my views on another's society or it's customs...

Originally Posted by nikokapo
I'd rather they kill some guy in front of 50.000 people than a defenseless bull.

Click to expand...

Since you posted it...
Maybe the question should be....
"Are you willing to give up your life for that bull"...:thinking:


Jerry

lasersbee said:

I can see different people place their line at different levels...
I know where mine is... although the above example actually has
three separate lists that require a line each....(at least for me)..

Click to expand...

Those are all simply some of the "lines" we have discovered when doing this exercise with students. People have different ones. The Can/Should/Must shifts are clear attitude "levels."

One of the interesting things about it is that circumstances can temporarily (sometimes permanently) shift a thing's position on the hierarchy. A person who would simply get up and leave if ants invaded their picnic will feel no guilt about using a chemical nerve agent on thousands of them or from feeding them a slow acting poison which they will carry back to feed their young, on any ants that invade their house.

People see no problem with pulling a "weed" and killing a plant, just so their garden will look prettier to them. However, these same people may chain themselves to an oak tree that has been scheduled to be removed to make room for required housing or roads.

People -- Ya gotta love 'em

Peace,
dave

Niko - Do you eat meat from animals you don't slaughter/raise yourself ? If so, you're "guilty" of supporting slaughterhouses and animal farming. Think about it, the methods used to kill the food you eat make bullfighting look humane. Also, as per recreational hunting, I generally disapprove of hunting "larger" animals but I don't care much for rodent-like animals. I'm not at liberty to condone or disapprove of bullfighting; IMHO, every culture has their own beliefs/customs and are thus entitled to them.

lasersbee said:

Since you posted it...
Maybe the question should be....
"Are you willing to give up your life for that bull"...:thinking:


Jerry

Click to expand...

Of course not, and you know it.
I'm not trying to make myself a big man by killing a bull in front of 50.000 people.


Also, no bullfights here either but that doesn't make it right anywhere.

Hmm.. read that again, and if you mean it, aknowledge you might have a problem...

Click to expand...

Didn't I state that I was crazy? It should be on my profile. Well, I am, don't forget that.
However, you saying I have a problem doesn't mean I really have it (not denial, read above). I just care more about a bull that was locked in a "cage" and then released to be killed in front of a bunch of people than the guy that is going to kill it just for fun.

You're all taking things out of context and extrapolating to other cases, I didn't say any human should be killed for no reason instead of any animal. I'm just talking about bullfighting here, do not diverge.

digital_blue said:

Niko - Do you eat meat from animals you don't slaughter/raise yourself ? If so, you're "guilty" of supporting slaughterhouses and animal farming. Think about it, the methods used to kill the food you eat make bullfighting look humane. Also, as per recreational hunting, I generally disapprove of hunting "larger" animals but I don't care much for rodent-like animals. I'm not at liberty to condone or disapprove of bullfighting; IMHO, every culture has their own beliefs/customs and are thus entitled to them.

Click to expand...

Yes! I eat meat. Dude I never said animals should not be eaten! I said they shouldn't be killed for funsies

daguin said:

Those are all simply some of the "lines" we have discovered when doing this exercise with students. People have different ones. The Can/Should/Must shifts are clear attitude "levels."

One of the interesting things about it is that circumstances can temporarily (sometimes permanently) shift a thing's position on the hierarchy. A person who would simply get up and leave if ants invaded their picnic will feel no guilt about using a chemical nerve agent on thousands of them or from feeding them a slow acting poison which they will carry back to feed their young, on any ants that invade their house.

People see no problem with pulling a "weed" and killing a plant, just so their garden will look prettier to them. However, these same people may chain themselves to an oak tree that has been scheduled to be removed to make room for required housing or roads.

People -- Ya gotta love 'em

Peace,
dave

Click to expand...

Chuck's sake..
Do you actually think I'm a vegan hippie?
A plant doesn't feel. Also, ants don't either, they can die, etc. But their nervous system doesn't allow them to feel pain in the same way as we do. Same thing with lobsters and other animals (not mammals).



Haha just for fun:

I'm not at liberty to condone or disapprove of bullfighting; IMHO, every culture has their own beliefs/customs and are thus entitled to them.

Click to expand...

So, say, Nazi Germany in '43. They had their "beliefs" and "customs", were they entitled to them?

See, ^ I've just turned this thread into a Hitler thread
God, those forum rules are so true

One of the other interesting things about the hierarchy of life exercise is that people will immediately begin to identify the OTHER people who need to examine their hierarchy while still clinging mindlessly to their own

Once one identifies their own hierarchy and lines, the next step is to ask oneself "Why do I place that line there?"

Peace,
dave

@Niko -- Your assumptions about other lifeforms not "feeling" (pain or emotion) are being disproved at a very regular pace.

daguin said:

One of the other interesting things about the hierarchy of life exercise is that people will immediately begin to identify the OTHER people who need to examine their hierarchy while still clinging mindlessly to their own

Once one identifies their own hierarchy and lines, the next step is to ask oneself "Why do I place that line there?"

Peace,
dave

@Niko -- Your assumptions about other lifeforms not "feeling" (pain or emotion) are being disproved at a very regular pace.

Click to expand...

You're the best, man. You always leave me thinking. Though you know I'll never approve of bullfighting.


It's great to know I'm being disproved in this topic, I have always wondered how the pain system worked on other lifeforms. The more information, the better.

what about when its done non lethal i recently went to a portaguees bull fight non lethal and believe me the bulls won the show three fighters or i think they called it portaguees poker got creamed