Old 09-25-2009, 05:41 PM #17
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Default Re: Bullfighting

I think the bull gets to go out like a warrior this way, instead of like at a slaughter house.
Also, at least the bull gets a chance to impale the fighter....How many people go there to see this?

Well maybe a one sided warrior death, but still..


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Old 09-25-2009, 05:43 PM #18
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Quote:
How many people go there to see this?
More than you imagine, they are big events on Spain.
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Old 09-25-2009, 05:46 PM #19
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Hey Niko....

Quote:
It's great to know I'm being disproved in this topic,
You are not being disproved...
The question asked was whether we approve of bullfighting and we
aired our views...
Just because you think Bullfighting should banned... does not make
your views wrong.....

Jerry
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Old 09-25-2009, 05:52 PM #20
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikokapo View Post
You're the best, man. You always leave me thinking. Though you know I'll never approve of bullfighting.
It's great to know I'm being disproved in this topic, I have always wondered how the pain system worked on other lifeforms. The more information, the better.
The old lines between us and them are becoming more blurred all the time. Pain is simply a "sensation" that has become so intense that it triggers our avoidance. How many animals will react to avoid a sensation?

Trees react to the attack of wood boring insects by producing a chemical which repels them. Simple chemical reactions, right? Those same trees also send out a different chemical to "tell" the other trees that it is being attacked. The other trees then begin to produce their own chemical to repel the invaders even though they have not been personally attacked.

Microbes communicate with microbes that they meet along the way. They compare what defenses to our antibiotics they each have, and then exchange the ones they do not have in common so that BOTH now have the needed "information" to survive.

Pelagic fishes (tuna, etc) react to temperature changes as little as 1 degree. They become uncomfortable with a 1 degree temperature shift. They work to avoid that discomfort. At what level will the temperature difference become "pain"?

Birds will act injured to attract the attention of a predator away from their young. A mother deer will confront a lion to protect its young.

How are they different from us?

Does that mean that I think that we should all become absolute vegans? No. We fought our way to the top of the hierarchy. We should enjoy the benefits of holding that position.

You should invite me to the bullfight. I have no problem with bullfighting. I then get the opportunity to accept or reject your invitation. NOW -- if after I refuse, you try to "force" me to go "for my own good" I will move you lower on my personal hierarchy If I try to tell you that bullfighting is bad, then I have forced myself above you on the hierarchy. I would expect you to react accordingly.

I eat what I want. I kill what I want. That doesn't mean I kill everything. I pretty much conform to my society's view on the hierarchy of life. It is necessary to live in said society. For example. dogs are well below my line of "kill if I want to." However, if I leave my dog in my car on a hot day, I would expect to have my window broken out and to be arrested for leaving it there. NOT because the dog's life is so valuable, but because it is against the law to leave a pet in a car here.

I do NOT want you to go to bullfights. I also do not want you to tell Hallucynogenyc he should not. However, I DO want you both to tell each other what you think and to UNDERSTAND why you think it.

[/dad mode]

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Old 09-25-2009, 06:27 PM #21
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Okay, I'd like to put some things straight. I'm referring to the Spanish bullfighting, and the actual questions are:

What do you know about bullfighting?
What do you think about bullfighting?
What grade of popularity do this events have in Spain?
What grade of acceptation do this events have in Spain?
How much implemented are this events in Spain?

Again, don't look in wikipedia, I don't want to hear the truth since I already know it, I want to know what do people think outside here about this.

I'll explain everything you want tomorrow or even before, now just answer these simple questions please

Yours,
Albert
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:04 PM #22
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Ive been to bullfights in Spain (Bilbao)

Lets get some facts in here first, the bulls that fight live the life of a king until the fight, they are bred for the fight.
The organisers of these events have to make sure that the bulls put up a good fight so their fed very well and have very spacious enclosures and and also get plenty of erm..female cows for breeding.

The bullfighters I have watched are 'generaly' very skillfull, if a bullfighter doesnt put on a good show the crowd turn on him, make no doubt about it.
If he cant dispatch a bull cleanly then he will be booed and jeerred out of the ring.

There is a alot of respect for the bull.

Also the bull fights are usually only held on special ocasions, fiestas, popular parties etc.
They aint like the Football/Baseball/Basketball leagues going on every week (well not in northern Spain)

From the fights I have watched most are very entertaining, skillfull and theatrical!
There are some horrors though and those bullfighters would not be invited back!

The most negative part of the fight in my opinion is the stage when the bull has to face the "Picadores" the men on horses whith lances their job is to weaken the bull before the 'matador' begins his fight.
It is here where you see the full power of the bull. The bull at this point has incredible strength and without this stage I dont think the Matador would stand a chance!
But I would be a great leveler to see this happen...he he he

All in all I find it a fantastic event and the that people celebrate on special occasions.


P.S. I am only speaking of my own knowledge and experiences, I hope this constitutes how the vast majority of fights are held around the World.

Jason
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:06 PM #23
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Default Re: Bullfighting

You are being confronted with the reality that most people cannot separate their cognitions from their emotions

I do not know if there is a significant difference between Mexican bullfighting and Spanish bullfighting. If they are similar, I know a lot. If they are dissimilar, then I know little

Bullfighting is a culturally specific sport which arouses emotions (both positive and negative)

Once again extrapolating from Mexican bullfighting, I imagine that there is a very mixed reaction to the sport in Spain. As our societies become ever more entwined, these emotion laden differences will increase

This would depend on what you are classifying as a "bullfight." If you are including ninos toreros or novilleros, then I would imagine that they are quite common. If you are only counting large arena type events, then the number would be much smaller

Peace,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallucynogenyc View Post
Okay, I'd like to put some things straight. I'm referring to the Spanish bullfighting, and the actual questions are:

What do you know about bullfighting?
What do you think about bullfighting?
What grade of popularity do this events have in Spain?
What grade of acceptation do this events have in Spain?
How much implemented are this events in Spain?

Again, don't look in wikipedia, I don't want to hear the truth since I already know it, I want to know what do people think outside here about this.

I'll explain everything you want tomorrow or even before, now just answer these simple questions please

Yours,
Albert
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:36 PM #24
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Briefly, what I believe bullfighting is:
A bull is bred for strength and size. They feed it well and allow it to mate often. The breeders have to be very careful because exposing the bull to humans before the fight will ruin it as it will learn to go for the bullfighter rather than his red cape. Therefore, even in the rare event that a bull wins the fight, it has to be killed because it cannot be used for another one. Bulls are intelligent creatures.
The myth about bulls hating red things is not true - they are colour blind and are simply annoyed by the shiny suit of the bullfighter as well as the cape he is waving about - just like a kitten they will attack something which moves.
The bull is weakened and enraged before the matador (I think that's what the bullfighter is called) fights it. This is done by jabbing it with spears - otherwise the bull might either not bother attacking and therefore not put up a show because it would rather just stand around and eat stuff, or in case it still attacked it would be much too strong.
If a bullfighter is in trouble (aka about to get his ass whooped by the bull), people will enter the arena and stab the bull again with spears.
The arena is usually round with spectators on all sides and dirt/sand floor.

I am not particularly offended by it, nor do I think it is very exciting.. to me it seems like just another way for man kind to show his dominance, as the bull can't actually win the fight.

It is quite popular, but not a huge huge thing. People go to the cinema, watch football and so on more, but when there is a bullfight, the tickets tend to get sold out.

It is fairly widely accepted, although there are groups with very strong hatred for it who try to get it banned. I would say about 60% of people think it's fine.

Bullfights are not held that often any more. They are mostly held when there are other big events or holidays.

Seb
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Old 09-25-2009, 08:43 PM #25
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Okay I've heard enough. I created this thread because I was told by someone that people outside Spain approve the fights more than here because they mainly are uninformed about them. I couldn't believe it and so I created this thread. My god. All i can say that guy was totally right. I'll first state some facts and then I'll give my opinion.

Actually almost 70% of the Spanish people would like to forbid them. Only a 25% is interested on them and only a 6% has gone on one of this events in the last 3 years.

Reducing the circle to Catalonia, (where I live) a 81% want to forbid them.

Most of the people going on this events are tourists and most of them declare that they are not going to return.

Quote:
Also the bull fights are usually only held on special ocasions, fiestas, popular parties etc.
They aint like the Football/Baseball/Basketball leagues going on every week (well not in northern Spain)
You said it yourself. Not in Bilbao. Euskadi and Catalonia have totally different cultures, bullfighting is not well seen in these regions and so the bullfights are not very usual. Outside here, it's just like any other "sport".

Quote:
they are bred for the fight.
Sacrifice might suit the definition maybe. how can you consider it a fight, 10 people with daggers, swords, spears and other torturing stuff against a poor bull.

The bull is inside a small "box" with no windows so he stays in the most complete darkness. After this if they find out that the bull is relaxed they inject them substances to excite them. When the show is gonna start some people hit him with wands to ensure the bull starts running as soon as he is liberated. The bull doesn't want to fight at first. Just look how does he always run around the arena. he is looking for the exit (that's why they are all circular, it has been proven that on a square arena the bull goes to the corner and stays there for some time). When he finds out that it's impossible to escape and that there are some people attacking him it's when he starts to go aggressive. Wouldn't you?

To find out how the whole torture is done look at this explicative video:



You can see some of the things explained above on this video (jump to 0:45)



My opinion:

I once went to one of these events. I ended up crying and left at the first bull. Since then I've never returned again. Call me gay, fagot or whatever you want, I don't have any pet, and I honestly have never been interested in animals, but that was the most cruel thing I've ever seen.

I'm not complaining about animals killing. I eat them myself. I'm complaining about making a show about torturing and killing. The bull was gonna die anyway? The bull would have never been born if that events didn't exist. And anyway, I could feel the bull suffering from where I was, just look at the second video. The bull is crying for the goodness sake.

Honestly, call me crazy as Niko, maybe we are really crazy, but If I had to choose between killing the bullfighter or the bull, I wouldn't doubt for a second. Moreover, If I had to kill many people inside there I ensure you the bull would be the last surviver.

Both the bullfighters and the people who go at these shows repel me. The worst is that tourists like jaycey are the cause why this is still going on.

Yours,
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Old 09-25-2009, 08:55 PM #26
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Default Re: Bullfighting

You can lead them to water . . . . .

<sigh>

Peace,
dave
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Old 09-25-2009, 09:04 PM #27
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Seriously, I was very surprised with the results. There is more people who likes bullfighting outside than inside Spain. I wonder why this fights aren't done outside Spain then...
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Old 09-25-2009, 09:07 PM #28
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Well, hallucinogenic, it's a good thing you weren't in France during their revolution. They used to line aristocrats and others up and march them to the guillotine one by one while the whole town cheered them on. I don't think I could watch someone get beheaded regardless of the crime, and the French aristocracy could have been guilty of many crimes, but the reason they were killed is because of who they were.

In Roman times the gladiator was the bull, more or less.. they were put into sometimes impossible situations involving doing battle with both man and beast. These matches were pretty much the national sport of the Roman empire, much like baseball in the US.

Compared to these, bullfighting is quite tame.

Each person has their own sensitivities. Just because you are sensitive to the pain of an animal doesn't mean everyone else will or should feel the same way. Being sensitive to the pain of a person is a whole different thing.
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Old 09-25-2009, 09:41 PM #29
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Default Re: Bullfighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallucynogenyc View Post
Okay, I'd like to put some things straight. I'm referring to the Spanish bullfighting, and the actual questions are:

What do you know about bullfighting?
Not much... we don't have it here in Canada

What do you think about bullfighting?
Nothing... besides today it has never crossed my mind

What grade of popularity do this events have in Spain?
I have no idea... I live in Canada

What grade of acceptation do this events have in Spain?
I have no idea... I live in Canada

How much implemented are this events in Spain?
I have no idea... I live in Canada

Again, don't look in wikipedia, I don't want to hear the truth since I already know it, I want to know what do people think outside here about this.

I'll explain everything you want tomorrow or even before, now just answer these simple questions please

Yours,
Albert
I just got back and saw this post Albert... and have answered to best of my knowledge...
I haven't even voted on the poll... because I don't have enough information to make an
informed decision...

Jerry
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Old 09-25-2009, 09:51 PM #30
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Default Re: Bullfighting

anyone that works at a sloughter house has no morals . and should be executed themselves

oh btw we are up to about 3.5 million birds a week now

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Old 09-25-2009, 09:53 PM #31
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Default Re: Bullfighting

How do I quote???

Albert said "I wonder why this fights aren't done outside Spain then... "

They are, just in a different arena and different animal..In UK fox hunting.


Ive had a fair few to drink tonight so want go any further, but I think your wrong Albert, especialy about the Basque region of Spain.


We'll pick this up another time.

Sleep well

Jason
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:17 PM #32
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Default Re: Bullfighting

you gonna teach me about my country? Not to be rude and I know it sounds like this, but trust me that I know everything I need to know about euskadi.
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