Legality of selling lasers - Discussion.

This thread is to discuss what was mentioned in this thread: PERMANENT THREAD: Ebay & other internet FINDS of interest. without derailing a thread.

To summarize:

crazyspaz said:

If this seller s a forum member, they should stop making and selling lasers on eBay. It's kinda sorta illegal, and sooner or later you will get nailed for it (ask Rick Trent).

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I sent a message to the seller who reply said (slightly modified):

"I was not aware of this, can you provide or direct me to the guidelines or requirements for selling lasers so I can read up on them?
I've seen them sold in many places by many people and wasn't aware there were restrictions like you mention. Thank you for letting me know, I'm not someone who wants to be involved in any activities that are not 100% legal."

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I didn't respond yet because I'm not quit sure what to say.
Is the any "legal" way to sell them?

What should I say?

Thoughts, comments, concerns etc.

Thanks,

sure. model the business after DTR:san:

There's no way around the law in the USA. I don't think anyone will get in trouble for one-off's, but selling lots of them isn't a good idea.

If you're going to be selling lots of lasers, it better (for your own good) be parts only. Such as DTR's business.

crazyspaz said:

If this seller s a forum member, they should stop making and selling lasers on eBay. It's kinda sorta illegal, and sooner or later you will get nailed for it (ask Rick Trent).

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And people told me I was being silly after I said it was stupid to sell lasers as "kits"

that seller 'nicolassmith1218 ' would be wise to list as a kit and.just as important remove all references to Kasio= They are not to happy with anyone using their name or diodes from their PJs- LPF has been threatened with lawsuits and admin at LPF has asked us to NOT use their name-- hk

hakzaw1 said:

that seller 'nicolassmith1218 ' would be wise to list as a kit and.just as important remove all references to Kasio= They are not to happy with anyone using their name or diodes from their PJs- LPF has been threatened with lawsuits and admin at LPF has asked us to NOT use their name-- hk

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Can LPF be held accountable for what users do?

:thanks:

USAbro said:

Can LPF be held accountable for what users do?

:thanks:

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That's a good question :thinking:

Anyhow, well if the law says a person cannot buy high powered lasers, it means precisely that. It's a stupid law, but then again nearly everything is, regarding that matter. It's our hobby and we do it because we love it.

HOWEVER I am opposed to selling complete high powered lasers on eBay.

On specialized sites that get recommended to you on a forum? Sure.

But not as publicly.

You can't buy guns on eBay. You can only buy them in special, controlled stores. I see no reason it should be different with lasers.

Selling parts and kits, like diodes and drivers, is no different from selling transistors and capacitors. It's just components. Availability of that is one of the reasons I love internet shopping You can buy literal pounds of electronic components for lunch-money. And you can build anything from walkie-talkie and lightshows, to lethal tasers and railguns.

Point is, those who can build dangerous stuff, are aware of the danger, and are unlikely to use it unwisely. But anybody can buy a complete pointer, and just point 'n' get in trouble.

Survival Laser also had trouble a long time ago and that's why their kits are only for export on their international site, I remember Garoq talking about it here in some thread. The SL site for US customers only sells parts because of this, no complete lasers.

As far as I know though there are no restrictions on lab lasers. If it has to plug into the wall then it's ok.

Alan

USAbro said:

Can LPF be held accountable for what users do?

:thanks:

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No, but C@asio can send legal threats which are a pain to deal with.

Eudaimonium said:

Selling parts and kits, like diodes and drivers, is no different from selling transistors and capacitors. It's just components.

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Depends on how much is assembled. Sellers have gotten in trouble in the past for selling kits where the assembly consisted of putting a heatsink and battery in a host.

Didn't Survival Laser get in trouble for
selling host kits with a diode? I don't
think anything was assembled. They don't
sell any diodes to USA customers, period.
By the same token, DTR does not sell
hosts. I think the simple act of selling
all of the required pieces at the same
time, weather they are bundled or not, on
different pages, or in different auctions,
is enough to get in trouble.

Ultimately someone must decide what
constitutes a kit, and where to draw the
line between parts and a fully assembled
laser. What would constitute assembly?
Putting in a battery? Soldering one loose
wire, two loose wires, three? Would
turning a few screws be considered
manufacturing? What if it came without
screws, but the screws are common and can
be purchased at any local hardware store?
I do not envy this person.

In the end, the laws can't cover everything or every workaround. They can only make it more difficult for common people to obtain hardware that works with little effort. Quite frankly, I'm not entirely against that as long as penalties don't escalate to the point that mere possession of a laser is illegal. The more time, effort and money people have to spend understanding how to create something, the more respect they're going to have for what they're creating. Douchebag-bro kids who can spend $30 for some high powered Laz0r to blind friends is the last thing we need for this hobby.

They could ban all laser diodes and gas systems, meaning we would go back to the middle ages! No starfinders, no dvds or blue ray.

Tapes and records would reign once again! If they did ban lasers, I would want someone to blind a pilot with a spot light (I don't want anyone to get hurt!) just to prove a point that lasers aren't the only problem. It's kids who found some laser and though blinding pilots was cool. Kids who like to make other squirm.

USAbro said:

They could ban all laser diodes and gas systems, meaning we would go back to the middle ages! No starfinders, no dvds or blue ray.

Tapes and records would reign once again! If they did ban lasers, I would want someone to blind a pilot with a spot light (I don't want anyone to get hurt!) just to prove a point that lasers aren't the only problem. It's kids who found some laser and though blinding pilots was cool. Kids who like to make other squirm.

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We can't go back to a time before lasers. Lasers are one of the 10 most important technological developments in history, and magnetic media is obsolete and near its very end. So much of our technology is dependent on lasers and there are so many scientific and industrial uses that we can't be without them anymore.

There are other hazards that technology is creating that will also be a problem. What will happen when we can build high power Star Trek type phasers or particle beams or ion cannons or whatever? It's not as far away as you think. Also more people may start building coil guns and rail guns, these aren't as complex as you think for a do it yourselfer like many of us, and they can be very powerful.

Alan

USAbro said:

They could ban all laser diodes and gas systems, meaning we would go back to the middle ages! No starfinders, no dvds or blue ray.

Tapes and records would reign once again! If they did ban lasers, I would want someone to blind a pilot with a spot light (I don't want anyone to get hurt!) just to prove a point that lasers aren't the only problem. It's kids who found some laser and though blinding pilots was cool. Kids who like to make other squirm.

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You talk about those "kids" as if you don't carry a 1W laser around in public...

USAbro said:

They could ban all laser diodes and gas systems, meaning we would go back to the middle ages! No starfinders, no dvds or blue ray.

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Why mention something like the above?? Nothing even remotely like this has ever been under consideration by anyone or any Goverment or Govermental agency.

As for selling complete kits to make a handheld laser----ask Survival Lasers
LPF member Garoq---who say in post 13 in this thread http://laserpointerforums.com/f44/question-about-survival-lasers-88504.html---he was told in no uncertain terms that selling complete kits containing everything needed to assemble a laser, is a nono and illegal.

"MP, you wouldn't think it was so stupid if you received a series of letters from the FDA (that's the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, the federal agency charged by Congress with the regulation of "radiation producing" products like lasers, among other things) threatening to fine you and/or shut you down if you didn't comply with their policy of selective interpretation and enforcement of their regulations.

Do you seriously think I would of my own free will turn down sales from my fellow citizens??

The SL USA site was specifically constructed after a number of exchanges with the FDA about what they would and would not consider violations of their regulations. We also racked up significant legal fees during this process.

The reason others here are still selling is that they are not yet on the FDA's radar, or are not selling a combination of parts that could be construed as "lasers" or "laser products" as the FDA defines them. If they continue long enough, or become visible enough, I'm sure they will be contacted as well.

If you are unhappy with this policy, I would recommend you contact the FDA and express your concern and opinion about their regulations and enforcement practices. We appreciate all the support we can get and we would love to be able to resume shipping all of our products to US customers. "

The US Government has been ipeading on our rights for the last fifty years. They are taking our right away. Hell in my state because a very large part of it is liberal we have to register a gun just to let a friend use it for hunting and there is a lot of these kind of bull $h*t laws out there. People say that guns kill people.. That has been the dumbest argument of the century. Guns are a tool nothing more. a gun can not pick it self up off a desk and kill your coworker. Just as in lasers.. They dont get off your desk, drawer what ever. Its is the human beings operating them that are the problem. I really get pi$$ed off of all this kind of bull that congress and the liberals and republicans take with deciding what is best for us like we are little kids. Do I think there should be some laws concerning ownership yes. But make it like 18 you can buy a rifle or shotgun at 18 or have training classes like they do for hunters education. but banning them is just a chicken $h@t kind of way out if this offends any one I am sorry but that is my feeling on the matter

crazyspaz said:

You talk about those "kids" as if you don't carry a 1W laser around in public...

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Do I?