Welcome to Laser Pointer Forums - discuss green laser pointers, blue laser pointers, and all types of lasers

LPF Donation via Stripe | LPF Donation - Other Methods

Links below open in new window

ArcticMyst Security by Avery

Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

Bluefan

Bluefan

0
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
1,443
Points
48
If flying a plane was just the push of a button things would be more easy, but all the plane can do is fly a nice approach, anything besides this (including the difficult parts of the landing) is still the hard work of a pilot.
 





jib77

jib77

0
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
718
Points
0
^^^ Nope ... you still have to maintain your instrument scans and be able to take over in case of auto pilot failure. The autopilot will not lower the gear, lower the flaps, react to system failures(they only react by trying to maintain the programmed flight profile), communicate with ATC, watch for and react to external factors, or apply reverse thrust.
 
Last edited:
Benm

Benm

0
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
7,896
Points
113
But it will do a go-around on most large passenger jets, right?

Then again, an aircrash is almost always due to multiple failures and problems, technical, human, environmental etc. I can imagine that a laser hit could be a contributing factor in an already bad situation, but i don't see how it would cause a crash on its own.

A birdstrike can also be a contributing factor (and those arent all that rare), yet i see noone pushing for legislation to outlaw birds.
 
Toke

Toke

0
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
1,099
Points
0
I believe most airports are making great efforts to get rid of outlaw birds. :D
 
BEAMANN

BEAMANN

0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
58
Points
0
Toke said:
I believe most airports are making great efforts to get rid of outlaw birds. :D
Click to expand...

Yes they go through great efferts to chase away birds, traind falcons, loud rock music, owl statues, fire works salutes, ear pearcing sound bursts, and they all seem to work! Briefly, very briefly, before the birds are back doing their bird thing again. Who whant to be a billion hier? come up with a solution to that problem!
 
G

GreenSkyy87

0
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
6
Points
0
BEAMANN, for some reason or another, I have to honestly say I find it very difficult to believe that you are a licensed helicopter pilot. I also find that a firework salute would be much more dangerous around an airport then birds, or even lasers for that matter.

I do believe however, that shining lasers at aircraft is a serious problem. The problem is caused by the human element, NOT by the laser. Im not saying that we should outlaw humans, because that would be ridiculous. What I'm saying is that the argument needs to get around all the political bull crap and put into perspective.

Outlawing lasers would not solve any problems. In a way you can look at it like gun control. Some of the cities with the strictest gun control laws actually have the highest crime rates. They had a problem with gun violence and outlawed guns. Look where it got them.

The key factor here is that the criminal is always going to have a gun if thats what they want to use to wreak havoc upon innocent citizens. The law abiding citizen will not, because they are just that - law abiding.

My point here is that both the laser enthusiasts and pilots have the same feelings towards "laser attacks". Why not work together and have a joint discussion how how to solve the problem?

The problem here being irresponsible companies putting a very dangerous piece of equipment into uneducated hands. Or uneducated parents putting these lasers into their 13 year old kids hands. The problem is not the lasers. Its the operator.
 
Last edited:
BEAMANN

BEAMANN

0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
58
Points
0
GreenSkyy87 said:
BEAMANN, for some reason or another, I have to honestly say I find it very difficult to believe that you are a licensed helicopter pilot. I also find that a firework salute would be much more dangerous around an airport then birds, or even lasers for that matter.

I do believe however, that shining lasers at aircraft is a serious problem. The problem is caused by the human element, NOT by the laser. Im not saying that we should outlaw humans, because that would be ridiculous. What I'm saying is that the argument needs to get around all the political bull crap and put into perspective.

Outlawing lasers would not solve any problems. In a way you can look at it like gun control. Some of the cities with the strictest gun control laws actually have the highest crime rates. They had a problem with gun violence and outlawed guns. Look where it got them.

The key factor here is that the criminal is always going to have a gun if thats what they want to use to wreak havoc upon innocent citizens. The law abiding citizen will not, because they are just that - law abiding.

My point here is that both the laser enthusiasts and pilots have the same feelings towards "laser attacks". Why not work together and have a joint discussion how how to solve the problem?

The problem here being irresponsible companies putting a very dangerous piece of equipment into uneducated hands. Or uneducated parents putting these lasers into their 13 year old kids hands. The problem is not the lasers. Its the operator.
Click to expand...

Look I only quoted what I have see on t.v. on the problems with birds, I did not make up the documentery on airports and birds (MODEREN MARVELS) I don't see where that gives doubt to my flight certificate and all my endorsements. I my self have never had a bird problem at any air port here in Phoenix, AZ you can look me up in the FAA AIR CREWMEN listing it's public info if you really need proof of my "helicopter drivers lic" or would you perfer a photograph of it, are you a pilot if so what is you rating? All this aside I agree with you 100%, any new laws won't change a thing! It will still continue just like all the other crimes.
And to let you know GREENSKYY 87 I was refering to fire crakers not arial bombs, general term(salutes) means a fire work divice that exsplodes this includs fire crakers, black cats,M80's,cherry bombs and even arial morter rounds just mencnen a few of them.
 
Last edited:
Benm

Benm

0
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
7,896
Points
113
Plenty of examples of dangers not being delt with i suppose. As far as the birds go, they make efforts to scare them away from airports, but passenger safety doesnt seem to allow for simply killing them. You can really blame the birds for loitering around the airport either, plenty of food in the grasslands, and secluded from traffic and most human activity.

Obviously most jet engines will happily gobble up a pigeon or two, but here in holland we get flocks of geese and swans too, sometimes requiring incoming aircraft to be put on waiting patterns until someone scares those birds off.

As far as the firearms argument goes: I agree with the concept of "If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns". People that see some kind of use in endangering air traffic using lasers will do so regardless of any ban on import of lasers, or resort to other means if lasers are no longer available.

The solution is in educating those that do not seek to do actual harm, making in clear that pointing lasers at aircraft can be factor in aviation safety. Don't take this over the top either - its a contributing factor, poiting a laser into the sky will not make it rain airliners!

I suppose most of the incidents are caused by pranksters who have little idea what they are actually doing, and not realizing they are causing danger at all. Those people should be treated as foolish, not as terrorists -those dont use laser pointers to down planes, ever.
 
BEAMANN

BEAMANN

0
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
58
Points
0
@ Benm, well said! Here in Phoenix Arizona once in a great while we'll on take off from the ramp, will suck a sparow or turkye vulture but rare but dose happen, and of corse no damage to the rotorcraft rotor systems. I do not want to try that with a flock of geese, That has been proven byond doubt that they can bring down a heavy.
 
Benm

Benm

0
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
7,896
Points
113
Some birds just grow really big, even in western climates. Things like geese, swans or storks are not that uncommon here. In reality they pose more of a danger to aviation tha lasers so far. A goose in the engine is something that would flame out a big jet engine, or completely destroy any prop blade on impact.

With laser pointer intereference a pilot has options, but with these birds in flock its not unthinkable to lose all propulsion on aircraft as big as an ATR42. Its a bit of a miracle those incidents dont happen more often than they do... then again, i've seen people push cows off the runway while appraoching small airports in asia, not a very comforting idea either ;p
 
hakzaw1

hakzaw1

0
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
10,662
Points
113
GreenSkyy87 said:
BEAMANN, for some reason or another, I have to honestly say I find it very difficult to believe that you are a licensed helicopter pilot. I also find that a firework salute would be much more dangerous around an airport then birds, or even lasers for that matter.

I fail to see the reason for this comment. Are you calling BEAMANN a liar?

rather rude and presumptious of you.

I happened to meet him at SELEM and I asked what he did for a living. He showed me his Lic. with his photo on it and in every way he was honest and very polite-.I dont think he was ever rude to you or any one else.

I think an apoligy is in order.

They dont shoot fireworks at aircraft to scare away birds- that is a stupid comment.

Both of you are new here and we want you both to stay and enjoy the forum, so lets play nice--OK?
Click to expand...
 
flecom

flecom

0
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
303
Points
0
jib77 said:
^^^ Nope ... you still have to maintain your instrument scans and be able to take over in case of auto pilot failure. The autopilot will not lower the gear, lower the flaps, react to system failures(they only react by trying to maintain the programmed flight profile), communicate with ATC, watch for and react to external factors, or apply reverse thrust.
Click to expand...

so how often will an autopilot fail coupled with the odds of getting illuminated by a laser... seems pretty slim both will happen on the same flight...

the real question is, did you eat the chicken? or the fish?
 
jib77

jib77

0
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
718
Points
0
Actually autopilot is not required equipment ... if it is broken the flight can still be dispatched and hand flown. Southwest Airlines does not use autopilot they hand fly. If the weather is good, most pilots I know hand fly the approach. So chances are most of the planes being illuminated are not under AP control.

But like its been stated, accident happen when multiple low probability adverse conditions interact at the same time ... if one of them happens to be some dumb-ass illuminating the aircraft, guess who gets 100% of the blame in the media during the year it takes to conclude the NTSB investigation.

Whether the threat is real or perceived doesn't matter, the science doesn't matter ... its just a matter of time before the gov' does "something" about the "problem" just so they can say they did something about the problem. It will not do anything of course, except have negative effects on the responsible participants of this community.
 
aryntha

aryntha

0
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
2,031
Points
83
Jetliners aside, other aircraft do exist that get targeted.

Police/fire/tv/weather helicopters often do get 'illuminated', are far less stable than jets, often do not have autopilots, and fly lower to the ground than jets.

That said, and I agree it may matter the least here (heh):

1) I'm a pilot,
2) I'm saying that landing is not a button-press the majority of the time (especially in a crosswind or varied field conditions, even if your pitch/throttle (airspeed/sink rate) is electronically controlled),
3) I implore you: 400mW of RPL in the face while doing it would increase the difficulty and danger *significantly*, hand raised to block it or not.

So:

A) You can say I'm wrong, if you like.
B) I'm not trying to raise anyone's ire, but I will have to hold fast to the notion that such an assessment of "ease of defense" from illumination is incorrect.

Your mileage may vary, but hopefully your altitude won't too much.

(And just an addendum, to be sure it's mentioned in every one of my posts; I do not think lasers should be made illegal - if I did, I would not own as many as I do.)

But, as laser people, we should be setting the tone, not PPRuNe. We should have less tolerance for these incidents than pilots do. And we should be completely solid on that. (By 'we', I mean laser enthusiasts in general -- not limited to this forum. So I am not neccessarily picking on present company here.)

I just think every time someone makes a "Well the pilots should just..." argument, we shoot ourselves in the foot - not the bureaucrats.

Let me just add though, I do think media has a tendency to sensationalize and 'villainize' anything like this. So there is some "spin" involved. Especially when they try to describe the lasers used and the people using them.

I said I'd step off, so I will. And I apologize for returning to the thread; it's just an issue I have a hard time keeping quiet on, as I want things to work out for the best on both sides of the fence.
 
Last edited:
hakzaw1

hakzaw1

0
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
10,662
Points
113
Well said---Aryntha and as pilot and laser enthusist you should know of what you speakth. +rep for good sense.
 
E

ElektroFreak

0
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,725
Points
0
aryntha said:
But, as laser people, we should be setting the tone, not PPRuNe. We should have less tolerance for these incidents than pilots do. And we should be completely solid on that.
Click to expand...

I agree 110% on that.. we should discourage this behavior always. I can see how people picking it apart and analyzing other parts of this problem could seem like people basically trying to direct blame elsewhere, but it is certain laser users/enthusiasts that are the problem, not the planes or the pilots. That's absolutely fact.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.




Top