Lasers in Airspace, A view from the other side.

We pointed it at our church across the bay, a distance of slightly less than a kilometer, and see a spot no more than an inch or two in diameter! How's that for collimation and coherence? I have never seen a LED-based l@ser with such properties.

..

And then I stopped reading

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Really? Something that produces a 5cm diameter dot at 1 kilometer away sounds bloody interesting to me. That 0.025 mrad divergence, which must have some very interesting components

Addonex said:

I know several airline pilots and because of the nature of the job they will often exaggerate things to offset the company's natural tendency to put cost savings over safety. That ever present conflict of interests has led to the hypersensitivity seen on that board.

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Well, what would the cost aspect be here?

I'm sure if there was real threat of losing a 100 million++ dollar aircraft due to lasers blinding the pilots, any airline would be happy to provide precautions. Most complaints are about green lasers, which could be quite easily be prevented by HR coating the cockpit windows for 532. For good measure they should install a HR 445 and <410 nm coating in the same run, and there wouldn't be any problem. These coatings wouldn't affect visibility much if they are narrow band.

Protecting against red lasers would be more difficult because of the wider selections of wavelengths used, but all the reporst so far mention green lasers - though i have no doubt the reports on blue 445s will pick up now they are commonly available.

Benm said:

Well, what would the cost aspect be here?

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Im just explaining where the attitude stems from ... whether a real or perceived safety issue that is how they handle it because that is what they are used to doing. Force of habit.

Benm said:

Well, what would the cost aspect be here?

I'm sure if there was real threat of losing a 100 million++ dollar aircraft due to lasers blinding the pilots, any airline would be happy to provide precautions. Most complaints are about green lasers, which could be quite easily be prevented by HR coating the cockpit windows for 532. For good measure they should install a HR 445 and <410 nm coating in the same run, and there wouldn't be any problem. These coatings wouldn't affect visibility much if they are narrow band.

Protecting against red lasers would be more difficult because of the wider selections of wavelengths used, but all the reporst so far mention green lasers - though i have no doubt the reports on blue 445s will pick up now they are commonly available.

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Coating the windows is not an option, even if it was possible to coat such large surfaces. HR coating only work at a specific angle. If you want to cover all angles, it won't be as narrowband as you'd hope it would be. So in the end it would take away a lot of light. Pilots need to adapt to the dark for a long time, so they won't appriciate it when you take away a part the little light that's left.

modern airplanes practically fly themselves anyway, just get rid of the pilots, problem solved lol

flecom said:

modern airplanes practically fly themselves anyway, just get rid of the pilots, problem solved lol

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Given the fact that most ACTUAL problems with aircraft (you know, actual problems that cost people their health or lives) are PILOT error, perhaps you're on to something there. Perhaps rather than whining about idiots with lasers on some forum like a bunch of itty-bitty babies they should re-examine themselves and their own competency. After all, they are the weakest link in the air safety chain.

I'm not saying they're not justified in their feelings, it's just that I feel they've got better things to worry about. Wasting time yapping on a forum shouldn't even be a consideration for any active pilot at all as long as pilot error continues to cause death and destruction.

Meatball said:

I don't consider the targets I point at, as... something I'm attacking. If that were the case, I've got a 13'X8' white wall to apologize to.

I HOPE that pilots don't have a bad taste for laser hobbyists, and laser professionals. I hope they can recognize that anyone who knows something about lasers in the first place, knows better.

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I am a rotocraft pilot, flying a helicopter is not an easy task, It's one of the few things in life that requires large amounts of multi tasking and intence focus to fly a mechine that is all ways unstable and it's million parts trying to fly a part. I personaly would kick the crap out of some one flash blinding me with a laser pointer, hand held, what ever! I love the laser and I do laser shows. check out what is going to be law :google " HR 5810 2010 111th "
This maybe a joke to those of you who are not pilots and thair for you have no idea what your talking about, this no joke or light matter to any real pilot of any type aircraft. All it would take is just one idiot to point a laser and if by chance, down an aircraft into a populated area killing passangers and who ever is at the point of accident, to cause a nation wide ban of hand helds and out doors laser shows. the laws are unbarable as they are on lasers and the sky. please don't make it worse to those of you who would think this is a joke and has no merit. This is not an attack on any ones comment or post, It's a plea for mercy.

BEAMANN said:

I am a rotocraft pilot, flying a helicopter is not an easy task, It's one of the few things in life that requires large amounts of multi tasking and intence focus to fly a mechine that is all ways unstable and it's million parts trying to fly a part. I personaly would kick the crap out of some one flash blinding me with a laser pointer, hand held, what ever! I love the laser and I do laser shows. check out what is going to be law :google " HR 5810 2010 111th "
This maybe a joke to those of you who are not pilots and thair for you have no idea what your talking about, this no joke or light matter to any real pilot of any type aircraft. All it would take is just one idiot to point a laser and if by chance, down an aircraft into a populated area killing passangers and who ever is at the point of accident, to cause a nation wide ban of hand helds and out doors laser shows. the laws are unbarable as they are on lasers and the sky. please don't make it worse to those of you who would think this is a joke and has no merit. This is not an attack on any ones comment or post, It's a plea for mercy.

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Do you have a real-world grasp on just how remote the possibility is that a privately-owned laser system would actually bring down an aircraft or cause any damage to it or it's occupants whatsoever? Helis are somewhat of an exception due to the fact that there is some bottom glass, which could allow a laser beam to strike a pilot directly, and could theoretically cause eye damage.. but it's still a pretty remote possibility in the real world.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I feel that pilots are justified in their feelings and worries about portable lasers for the most part, with the exception of everyone on the forum posted in the OP. That collection of morons shouldn't be allowed to present an argument for or against anything because they are a bunch of whiny babies blowing the whole issue out of proportion. If a person cannot keep their facts straight to the best of their knowledge (and the people posting in the OP's forum obviously cannot) then THEIR ARGUMENT IS A JOKE AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH.

Find me some pilots with a real-world understanding of the facts behind this problem, and THEN we'll have a serious discussion about it. Until then this thread is a joke because it's based on link to a discussion that is load of crap.

It's sad really, because this topic should be taken VERY seriously..

For the record, I am currently studying to fly helis (slowly.. haven't had much time lately) so I do have an appreciation for this issue.. as long as there are no hysterics involved.

Bluefan said:

Coating the windows is not an option, even if it was possible to coat such large surfaces. HR coating only work at a specific angle. If you want to cover all angles, it won't be as narrowband as you'd hope it would be. So in the end it would take away a lot of light. Pilots need to adapt to the dark for a long time, so they won't appriciate it when you take away a part the little light that's left.

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I'm not sure how far a pilot sits from the pane of the window, but it seems to be quite some distance in larger aircraft. This limits the angle on which a beam coming from outside can hit a pilot in the eye considerably.

I imagine that there is a solution already out there though, developed for military application. The incidents reported in the media are a about rather common lasers, no more than a few 100 mW. If the hazard were that big, i'd imagine that a bit more powerful lasers would be great on the battlefield, blinding pilots of enemy aircraft at low cost. They did blind enemy bomber pilots with searchlights in WW2 already, so its not a new problem at all.

Using lasers to actually blind an enemy combattant is illegal under the convention on conventional weapons. I doubt this would deter any rogue enemies like the terrorists the US is worried about though. Also, the difference between blinding and dazzling/confusing is not all that clear.

ElektroFreak said:

Do you have a real-world grasp on just how remote the possibility is that a privately-owned laser system would actually bring down an aircraft or cause any damage to it or it's occupants whatsoever? Helis are somewhat of an exception due to the fact that there is some bottom glass, which could allow a laser beam to strike a pilot directly, and could theoretically cause eye damage.. but it's still a pretty remote possibility in the real world.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I feel that pilots are justified in their feelings and worries about portable lasers for the most part, with the exception of everyone on the forum posted in the OP. That collection of morons shouldn't be allowed to present an argument for or against anything because they are a bunch of whiny babies blowing the whole issue out of proportion. If a person cannot keep their facts straight to the best of their knowledge (and the people posting in the OP's forum obviously cannot) then THEIR ARGUMENT IS A JOKE AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH.

Find me some pilots with a real-world understanding of the facts behind this problem, and THEN we'll have a serious discussion about it. Until then this thread is a joke because it's based on link to a discussion that is load of crap.

It's sad really, because this topic should be taken VERY seriously..

For the record, I am currently studying to fly helis (slowly.. haven't had much time lately) so I do have an appreciation for this issue.. as long as there are no hysterics involved.

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@Electrofreack,
I am a real world rotorcraft pilot " FLY long line for the BLM Fire control" google "FSDO" also ask your CFI.The bottom windows of a helicopter are called "CHIN BUBBLES" would you chase down a a floating balloon to suck it threw your rotor system? I cought a DPS helicopter pilot doing it and had his cert pulled by the FAA. I could never see a balloon bringing down a helicopter but what if the conditions where right enought to do so, should we chance it? or should he fly to the best safety standards he can. remebering that a PIC has the ultimate responceability of the safe operation of the aircraft including passangers, ground property and ground personel. I have included a PDF, read and view the hole thing. It has a great photo in it giving a pilots view of a laser flash. If you are not super safety minded about flying a helicopter you won't make it in the helicopter industry. It's a small community and just one fuck up just one! can and would cost you a carrier as a halicopter pilot, $100,000 for you first four certs PVT, COMM, INSTR, and FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR before you can start logging for PIC of 5000, pluss hour just so you have chance to be hired is alot to throw a way, no to pay attenchen to a safety issue. It is true that no aircraft has crashed do to a laser pointer "attack" So how many crashes, laser pointer cased, would it take to convence people that maybe thair should be a law, 1 ,2, 3, 200? Your CFI ( CERTIFIDE FLIGHT INSTUCTOR) more than likely has no real world flight exsperiance as well thats why he is a CFI to get the hours he needs to get a real pilotting job other than a FLIGHT SHCOOL "we hire our own students as flight instructors"

^See, now if everyone in the link in the OP would present relatively factual information like you have here, my take on this thread would be much different. I just wish people would keep to the facts, that's all. And I wish people would refrain from posting BS (or links to BS) to promote their agendas. I get that this was done with good intentions, but the OP link is a load of crap. I'm merely pointing that out at length because I feel that it does more harm than good by detracting from the reality AND seriousness of the situation because of the hysterics in post after post on that forum.

elektrofreak said:

^see, now if everyone in the link in the op would present relatively factual information like you have here, my take on this thread would be much different. I just wish people would keep to the facts, that's all. And i wish people would refrain from posting bs (or links to bs) to promote their agendas. I get that this was done with good intentions, but the op link is a load of crap. I'm merely pointing that out at length because i feel that it does more harm than good by detracting from the reality and seriousness of the situation because of the hysterics in post after post on that forum.

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glad to be of help in your understanding!
Do lots of chair flying it helps a lot.

Toke said:

Somehow I don't think the pilots would get that one.
They appear rather ignorant of lasers in general and LPF hobbyists in particular.
Their attitude is pretty much "ban it all", and they are not likely to be swayed by arguments like "they are fun to build" and "the beam looks cool".

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I Fly and shure as hell don't want lasers band, the ones to worry about as posted on LPF " building a laser cannon " He wants to build a laser cannon so he can target things in the back yard, WTF? How long before he gets bored on cats, dogs, and ped's and gose for a quick shot on a plain or a helicopter. shurely rocks, trees, walls, or other artifacts won't holed his intrests long.
HERE is his post:

" Has anyone tried this? LASER CANNON!!!!! "

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Hello, I've been itching to know if anyone has ever tried this (keep in mind that this is just a rough idea) :

Take a plastic tube about 3 feet long and 4-6 inches in diameter.
Fill the openeing at one end with a ton of 100 mW lasers (using individual aixiz laser modules so the space will be filled).
Rewire the lasers to one switch.
Make the switch "pressable" from the outside (duh).

End result: a laser cannon with about 20 or so lasers that can be fired at once that would burn stuff and look awesome... although extremely dangerous. Perhaps each laser could also be a different color.

My concerns:
-overheating
-TOO MANY LASERS
-too dangerous
-battery power?
-maybe this is stupid and not nearly as feasible as I thought (probably the case)
-EXPENSIVE

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Last edited by renegade109; 09-26-2010 at 05:49 PM.

Me as a pilot and a laserest can only hope he is a safe laser operator!

I realise there are people who are both laser hobbyist and pilots, but judging by the tread in question they/you are exceptions.

I don't he will ever build his "laser showerhead/cannon", it sounds more like some random thought that should have stayed off print.

Toke said:

I realise there are people who are both laser hobbyist and pilots, but judging by the tread in question they/you are exceptions.

I don't he will ever build his "laser showerhead/cannon", it sounds more like some random thought that should have stayed off print.

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I am more than just a hobbyist I put on full sized laser shows "GODSLIGHTSHOWS.COM" I my self would not mind having one laser cannon for a supior laser bounce effect for my shows. If I can get it to one large 4" beam line insted of paralel beam lines. and getting past by the FAA!
(a single thought is the begning of an action)

At least the wide beam is something you could likely build.
Look here for inspiration.