Old 02-06-2018, 11:02 PM #177
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Well, no matter what it is, it is NOT a hologram. I have made many of these over the years and you can't transfer it to a screen or photograph. It is, when done well, a perfect image of the object wave. No matter how many pieces you cut or break a hologram into, each one is a complete image of whatever it was you took a hologram of. Try it sometime with a good reflection hologram.


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Old 02-07-2018, 12:48 AM #178
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Welcome back, Radim, we've missed your laser artistry!
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Old 02-07-2018, 08:29 AM #179
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Question Re: Radim's laser painting

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1598419 View Post
Well, no matter what it is, it is NOT a hologram. I have made many of these over the years and you can't transfer it to a screen or photograph. It is, when done well, a perfect image of the object wave. No matter how many pieces you cut or break a hologram into, each one is a complete image of whatever it was you took a hologram of. Try it sometime with a good reflection hologram.
Thank you for your opinion, Paul. I would not say it is not hologram, untill I know what it really is. It is definitely not hologram on physical medium like film or plate, but it seems to be generated in screen itself. Still this image has all characteristics hologram has (what is strange). Not sure about your screen but on my OLED display (mobile), it seems to be like real (but shallow) hologram. It is however very poor quality compared to conventional hologram. Especially the depth of field is very low (what makes it hard to see).

If we imagine hologram as a window with some object behind it, it is not accurate there is complete image captured in every piece you cut it into. Only those perspectives of the full object visible from the part of that window are in that piece. Imagine it as you cover the window with some black canvas with hole in it. You cannot see the object from perspectives which are covered by the canvas, but only those of uncovered part.

Quote:
When a photograph is cut in half, each piece shows half of the scene. When a hologram is cut in half, the whole scene can still be seen in each piece. This is because, whereas each point in a photograph only represents light scattered from a single point in the scene, each point on a holographic recording includes information about light scattered from every point in the scene. It can be thought of as viewing a street outside a house through a 120 cm × 120 cm (4 ft × 4 ft) window, then through a 60 cm × 120 cm (2 ft × 4 ft) window. One can see all of the same things through the smaller window (by moving the head to change the viewing angle), but the viewer can see more at once through the 120 cm (4 ft) window.
Source: Wiki

Here it is more complicated to observe this effect, since the depth of field is very low (in other words the object behind is very close to the window). It was one of the first things I did with the pic - I covered it and I was able to see full object up to the limit I mentioned above.

Let's see. I'll think about it and how to replicate it with better result. I just need to design some aparatus and get better stuff for it. Maybe I could find something to be used in my Optotronics kit (I just used a few pieces so far - no time for more).

Anyway thanks again - these kind of opinions I need, to find out what it is.


BTW:
Before I submitted this post I tried it again (I could not resist after your reply) - I cut myself completely out (when looking straight) of the pic and left only the face. When I moved my head to very sharp angle in right direction from the center (seen on mobile as it is easier with OLED) the same way to see myself if it was window. And guess what? A piece of my arm appeared over the face! I tried it again and again, compared it with full picture if there is not just my imagination or something and really. No doubt it was the arm. This should not happen if that is normal photo. The more I explore this strange green square, the more confused I'm and I can not believe this is hologram, but it still has all characteristics of it (even of poor quality and shallow depth) - no experiment I did so far could say otherwise.

I think I'll rest it for a few days, maybe I'll try to do another research to find something of similar effect (no success so far) and I'll try to reject the hypothesis it is the hologram. If you have any ideas, they are appreciated.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Welcome back, Radim, we've missed your laser artistry!
Thank you, Bowtie, it will take a while to put here my latest artwork, since I'm working on my project related to it. But maybe I'll proceed to finish it before, let's see. Maybe some instant laserpaintings or something not complicated to the level I spend all night in the forest (it is freezing here and lasers would suffer in these conditions).
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Old 02-07-2018, 07:18 PM #180
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Good luck on your search, Radim. And, it is great to have you back here on the LPF.
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Old 02-08-2018, 04:41 AM #181
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Thanks, Paul. I'm also happy to be here again.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:12 AM #182
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Arrow Re: Radim's laser painting

Update on the "Hologram" question: Where is the aditional information stored?


(For higher resolution click on the image.)


Here you can see why I'm so insanely curious about this strange green square. In holograms, the information about 3D space is stored in the speckles (rather than "wavy" pattern as shown on pic below).




Source: Wiki - click on pic for more.

The hypothesis is:

That display (OLED is the best I found so far, that's why I use my mobile to explore interference patterns of my artworks) is able to cause interference in "unwanted" color change when viewing under various angles. Here this little imperfection of display technology is used to get the information hidden/coded in the speckle/noise of the photograph.

Camera sensor:
Type: CMOS APS-C
Size: 22,3 × 14,9 mm
Resolution: 6000 × 4000 px

As you can see in original image detail - there are just a few pixels from full 24,2 Mpx available. Here at these dimensions some holographic effects based on phase difference of 532 nm could happen IMO.


What do you think?


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Last edited by Radim; 02-09-2018 at 08:17 AM. Reason: Typo.
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Old 02-09-2018, 07:32 PM #183
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

In holograms the microscopic interference patterns you see contain everything needed to reconstruct the object wave. That IS those wavy lines seen on the wiki image. When the hologram is made, if the reference beam and the object beam hit the film emulsion from the same side, it is a transmission hologram and you need the reference beam to reconstruct the image. However, if the two beams hit the film from opposite sides, you have a reflection hologram which can be seen in ordinary light.

The reason for this is the way the interference lines stack up in the film emulsions on the two different types. Long story short, on reflection holograms, the interference lines set up standing waves and only the light that is in phase with the reference beam that is part of the white light is passed through and reconstructs the object wave. In transmission holograms, the interference lines are skewed with respect to the lines in the emulsion of reflection holograms, so it is necessary to have the reference laser to reconstruct the image.
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:03 PM #184
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Exactly, Paul. I just freely quoted wiki. It just means in speckles and not only speckle. And from the method I used, these lines are present there as well as speckles. Just encoded differently and reconstructed by displays themselves. That could explain differences in depth of field dependend on various display technology and image size on particular screen.

I did not mentioned much about the method I used intentionally. And here I will stop with explanation for now. I would like to see what others think it is, not to beat this with whole optical setup to get this pic. Hypothesis could become seeming fact to someone IMO. What could lead to bad direction in potential discussion. I wish to get independend critical opinions to be discussed with that science guy we are about to see with my friend. We just need some alternative explanations as he is working in specific laser developement. I believe this is understandable.
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"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."
"If you do not feel and experience the magic, you cannot become the master of wizardry."


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LPF thread: Radim's Laserpainting Art, Complexity Philosophy and The Surreal World
Latest artwork: TaoLiim v3.0.0 is in Progress
New TaoLiim 2 - Holography (Free Download of my book)

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Old 02-11-2018, 09:01 PM #185
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

I will bow out and wish you good luck, then.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:38 AM #186
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Thanks and no problem, Paul. Your opinions, based not only on theory, but also on many years of experience in doing holography, are welcome. If you have any further comments, they are highly appreciated. So, feel free to come up with anything you think is worth to mention. I just cannot comment some technique details yet, that's all.

BTW: I studied some good literature on optical illusions I have in my library (interesting is that in references/further readings list only those with * recommended to advanced readers caught my attention). There was a lot of contextual information about human 3D space perception and I not only refreshed the information I remembered from last time I had this book in hand (long time ago). I also researched various interference experiments, some of them seem to support my hypothesis directly, some should have some indirect supporting effect, what makes me even more interested.

Anyway I would be happier if it is just an interesting optical effect (that means hypothesis rejected) and I would use it as a new laserpainting technique, instead of something worth to be patented (small chance, but surprisingly not desired - too much thinking how to proceed with that further). I drawed several schematics to get some preliminary optical setup to do experiments with. Luckily I have all optical components already or I can simply make them home, therefore once I have some time and mood, I'll try to play with them to see what I capture. Meanwhile I'll work on the schematic, calculate some parameters etc.
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:03 PM #187
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Exclamation Re: Radim's Laserpainting Art & more

WaZzzzZZzzUp???: The Hologram Question has been answered!

Hi my friends,

just a short note, because I'm too tired after a few recent days to post here. I've made it. I confirmed the distorsion in that Green Square is a real hologram. Actually very likely many of my artworks, if not all, are holograms. We are holograms...

Indeed when working on the artwork to be published (the older sister of artwork Soul in the Surreal world), I've explored it deeply (but not all) in last few weeks. I went deep down into quantum essence of the laser grain and interference patterns. Looking for 2D-3D distorsions and playing with them. Now I know I'll not publish it (at least for now - who knows what can be found there), but I'll definitely select a few holograms found deep inside to be published instead.

Long story short...



After several experiments I've made yesterday and today (and earlier) I'm confident to say:

I've just discovered a completely new kind of digital holography.
  • It is simple digital image with "noisy" pattern (laser grain), where all magic happens.
  • It uses normal screens (no need for special 3D), no need for glasses. No need for laser for reconstruction.
  • I've not only replicated reconstruction on various screens, but also on laser printer prints, which looks of low quality (well these are holograms as well), under special illumination (no need for lasers) you can perceive them 3D.

However, the best experiment, I've made yesterday (or was it today already?), was using my laptop as special chamber, where I used this laserpainting prints in a very special way and guess what?
  • I've generated multiple space distorsions (it was similar like exploring singularity of the black hole in Interstellar movie), where there were kind of "windows"...
  • Down deep like in infinite multidimensional labyrinth, I've found a second reality... Real life hologram of extreme precision. Full color...


I put my lighter and portable speaker inside and I could not distinguish which one is real - the hologram looked even much better than real scene - there were incredible details of scratches on my zippo observable from distance. All holographic properties were present. The best hologram quality I've seen so far... And I've seen quite a few. I took many photos of the hologram scene, so I need to go through them and select a few to be published. Hopefully the camera got it somehow...



I still cannot believe I did it. It is a great moment in my life..

Based on complexity philosophy, scientific apporach and pattern based systemic algorithms I mastered the reality of holograms step by step by my own way.


I'm happy, tired and ready to publish my discovery soon on LPF...

Post writting in progress hopefully dutring this week. I need to do it in proper way to explain the principle (yeah, that is not as complicated as it might look like, it is very easy compared to conventional holography).

I'm looking forward to look for more holograms in my artworks and especially to create them with full confidence... Now, the fun has just begun...

As Richard Feynman said by his famous lecture:
"There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom"

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Old 03-08-2018, 01:10 AM #188
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Congrats on your discovery Radim. Hope things pan out for you in a big way. But we’re not letting you off the hook that easy. We want more laser painting, and when do we want them ?? Uumm, when you have the time.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:58 AM #189
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

Thanks Bob,

I hope that thing won't be bigger than I'm. It is always a risk when you are playing with complex systems and thinking too much (still too tired - just a few hours slept since Monday). And that's planned and thank you for not leaving me without that, I cannot leave it for myself only.

So far, I've generated kind of master hologram from the original artwork (kind of map, like Mandelbrot set is map of Julia sets). From this master I'll generate some hologram to be published here or maybe I'll publish it like it is.

These holograms are however completely new. I'm currently studying how to display them for best depth of field. Certain approach is needed, but it is easy as people I showed it so far see what is there exactly.

If you see my current profile photo beyond other stuff on screen (especially from certain minimum distance and with no external light hitting the screen) you should see that very well.

As mentioned, I'll speak and show also some technical stuff how to reconstruct them and how they work.

Regarding art and philosophy, there is unbelivable story continuing, like new TV series of that meanings I wrote so far. There are mirrored in that composition and giving me some further pointer where to go in my thinking. Like I've evolved to next level of awesome game called life.


I need to do new concept of LPF post planned or redo it. Hopefully I'll get to this after work (oh, burden of conventional business life)...
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:30 PM #190
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Default Re: Radim's laser painting

I have to admit your talking a bit over my head. I’m doing the best I can to follow you. One thing I can say is, it sure sounds like a lot of fun. Best wishes with your endeavors.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:40 PM #191
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Lightbulb Re: Radim's laser painting





The Pandora's Black Box

Details taken from my laserpainting artwork:
The Shape Of The Surreal World
...the shape of the soul...


Note: For higher resolution click on the pic.


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"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."
"If you do not feel and experience the magic, you cannot become the master of wizardry."


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Latest artwork: TaoLiim v3.0.0 is in Progress
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:02 AM #192
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Talking Re: Radim's laser painting

Oh my god...

I was asked by my mum to print some of my art as a birthday gift for her friend. So, I used the latest artwork The Pandora's Black Box and to test the holograms on others as well.
I've just returned from the photo store, where I printed it in 4 versions (two matt and two glossy). On high quality photo paper this artwork is incredible. On first look you see the depth and all hologram properties. Especially the glossy paper is awesome in room. The depth is sooo large compared to current results so far...



Guys, it works...


BTW: I wrote simple instructions how to see it for that purpose, but I need to translate them to English. So, you can expect them soon.
And one more thing - I would like to know, if you can observe the effect on your screens (and/or prints). Thanks in advance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMc View Post
I have to admit your talking a bit over my head. I’m doing the best I can to follow you. One thing I can say is, it sure sounds like a lot of fun. Best wishes with your endeavors.
Thank you Bob. Do not worry, it is completely allright. I need to explain a lot. You cannot have the information from my research obviously. Bit by bit I would like to get into core and bring some value here hopefully. Who would not want easy to make holograms with just stuff everybody has access to?

And there is more in my mind... Time will tell... The research will continue and I'm about to initiate that meeting with the laser scientist as I mentioned earlier. Definitely I'll wait till I receive the feedback from my mum's friend celebration (taking place tomorrow), so after weekend I expect to have some news for all you here...
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"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."
"If you do not feel and experience the magic, you cannot become the master of wizardry."


Current collection:
405 nm | 500 mW | Wicked Lasers Lunar
445 nm | 3.5 W | Wicked Lasers Arctic
473 nm | 100 mW | Jet Lasers PL-E Pro
520 nm | 1 W | Wicked Lasers Krypton
532 nm | 100 mW | Wicked Lasers Evo
532 nm | 800 mW | Sky Lasers PL

532 nm | 1.4+ W | Optotronics RPL-II
589 nm | 50 mW | Dragon Lasers Spartan
635 nm | 750 mW | Wicked Lasers Inferno
1 W RGB projector
(+ some laser pointers)

Laserpainting art:
LPF thread: Radim's Laserpainting Art, Complexity Philosophy and The Surreal World
Latest artwork: TaoLiim v3.0.0 is in Progress
New TaoLiim 2 - Holography (Free Download of my book)

New card: Quantum Mechanics

My social media hashtag: #SurrealBird

Last edited by Radim; 03-09-2018 at 10:37 AM.
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