Old 12-07-2008, 08:51 AM #49
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrictlyBudget
[quote author=GooeyGus link=1227961484/40#40 date=1228511907][quote author=StrictlyBudget link=1227961484/20#37 date=1228405668]
if that's the case, then i can assume that profit is his no.1 priority, whether he has improved or not.

That's what businesses are for. If you think McDonalds is there because they really care if you're hungry or not... you got it all wrong. Business is always, and will forever be, about the money and profits.[/quote]
what you say is true, but you've missed the point. can't you see this guy's problem here? he's charging for something that can be done or bought EXACTLY for even cheaper. profit is the key to business, but unreasonable profit is another thing.

if he's talking about a host which he custom designed for his laser with key-switch safety feature and adjustable focus, and it comes along with a casing, i'd gladly buy one for that price or maybe even higher. you must give your customers at least one reason why it's advantageous to buy from you if you want them to purchase your products

all he's charging for is labour cost. why should his labour cost be higher than what our forum members charge for if his lasers are nothing special? that's not a great business proposal there.[/quote]

Can one really put a price on time? Most mechanics charge about 70 an hour. Engineers charge hundreds an hour. These are both things that anyone could learn how to do and do it themselves for a lot cheaper. You not only need to count the time it takes to build a laser, but the time it took to learn to build it, the time it took to buy components and equipment to build them, the time to set up the website to sell them, there are many factors here. I can change my oil for less than $10... the oil-change place down the road will charge me $40. If they feel that their price is justified then there is nothing wrong with that, i'll just do it myself. They dont do anything different at an oil change place than I do in my own garage.

I think a lot of you are in for a rude awakening in a few years :P


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Old 12-07-2008, 01:48 PM #50
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by GooeyGus
[quote author=StrictlyBudget link=1227961484/40#42 date=1228595019][quote author=GooeyGus link=1227961484/40#40 date=1228511907][quote author=StrictlyBudget link=1227961484/20#37 date=1228405668]
if that's the case, then i can assume that profit is his no.1 priority, whether he has improved or not.

That's what businesses are for. If you think McDonalds is there because they really care if you're hungry or not... you got it all wrong. Business is always, and will forever be, about the money and profits.[/quote]
what you say is true, but you've missed the point. can't you see this guy's problem here? he's charging for something that can be done or bought EXACTLY for even cheaper. profit is the key to business, but unreasonable profit is another thing.

if he's talking about a host which he custom designed for his laser with key-switch safety feature and adjustable focus, and it comes along with a casing, i'd gladly buy one for that price or maybe even higher. you must give your customers at least one reason why it's advantageous to buy from you if you want them to purchase your products

all he's charging for is labour cost. why should his labour cost be higher than what our forum members charge for if his lasers are nothing special? that's not a great business proposal there.[/quote]

Can one really put a price on time? Most mechanics charge about 70 an hour. Engineers charge hundreds an hour. These are both things that anyone could learn how to do and do it themselves for a lot cheaper. You not only need to count the time it takes to build a laser, but the time it took to learn to build it, the time it took to buy components and equipment to build them, the time to set up the website to sell them, there are many factors here. I can change my oil for less than $10... the oil-change place down the road will charge me $40. If they feel that their price is justified then there is nothing wrong with that, i'll just do it myself. They dont do anything different at an oil change place than I do in my own garage.

I think a lot of you are in for a rude awakening in a few years *:P[/quote]
you see, the problem is he sells hobby-grade lasers at an unreasonably high cost. emphasis on the "hobby-grade" part. i still stand strongly to that argument. you pay so much for mechanics and engineers is because they are trained professionals.
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:05 PM #51
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

You think the 16 year old kid unscrewing the bolt from your oil pan is a trained professional?? ;D ;D
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:44 AM #52
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by GooeyGus
You think the 16 year old kid unscrewing the bolt from your oil pan is a trained professional?? *;D ;D
Yes, because if he wasn't, then he wouldn't get the job.
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Old 12-08-2008, 05:20 AM #53
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

The guy unscrewing the bolt from your oil pan doesn't have any training that you couldn't learn on the internet in about 5 minutes.

The bottom line here is point of reference. YOU all think it's too expensive because you know what the components cost. If I showed a laser that could burn something to someone without that knowledge, they would think 200 is pretty cheap.

Who gets to draw the line between 'hobby grade' and 'professional' lasers? This guy has obviously had the training required to build a laser because he's doing it. Most companies out there probably started with what you would assume is 'hobby grade'. Why are they considered hobby grade? Just because he bought the host and other parts from another business? This guy could be an electrical engineer and thus be very qualified to assemble and design these parts but you all are drawing conclusions about his knowledge and his quality of building.
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:19 AM #54
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by GooeyGus
The guy unscrewing the bolt from your oil pan doesn't have any training that you couldn't learn on the internet in about 5 minutes.

The bottom line here is point of reference. YOU all think it's too expensive because you know what the components cost. If I showed a laser that could burn something to someone without that knowledge, they would think 200 is pretty cheap.

Who gets to draw the line between 'hobby grade' and 'professional' lasers? This guy has obviously had the training required to build a laser because he's doing it. Most companies out there probably started with what you would assume is 'hobby grade'. Why are they considered hobby grade? Just because he bought the host and other parts from another business? This guy could be an electrical engineer and thus be very qualified to assemble and design these parts but you all are drawing conclusions about his knowledge and his quality of building.
Well, he isn't an engineer. Because if he was, he would've been using drivers from the start.
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:28 AM #55
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin

I have never purchased one of his units to deconstruct and evaluate. *I do not recall ever seeing a review of one of his builds here in the forum. *However, my main concern about his "quality" is that he doesn't seem to understand the concept of a heat sink. *Having a module sticking out into the air is NOT better at dissipating heat than having the module in significant physical contact with a massive body of metal. *Plus, IMNHO, it looks like crap sticking out there. *If he doesn't understand something as basic as heat sinking, what else does he not understand? *

That module sticking out like that also brings up another question. *Does he actually not understand or is it just that he isn't creative enough to be able to figure out how to get it inside the host/heat sink? *

As you look through the B/S/T thread you will see some very compact lasers that are very "sleek" and "slick" looking. * Many of them are accompanied by tutorials on the build. *If he doesn't understand, then my above concern prevails. *

If he does understand and still builds them this way, then he is trying to deceive his customers by saying that it sticking out in the air is a good way to dissipate the heat. *If this is the case, then I have a BIG problem with him.

Peace,
dave
Dave,

First of all, thank you for the great post on the principles of running a business. You made some very valid points that hopefully LPF members will take into account when scrutinizing my company for "outrageous profit margins."

Apparently, there was some mistunderstanding here of my understanding of the concept of "heatsinking". OBVIOUSLY, metal dissipates heat better than air. I'm not questioning physics

If you look at an up-close picture of the font of any of our MagLite-based lasers, you'll find that the Aixiz modules are centered and held in place by a trimmed-down rubber grommet with an inner diameter roughly equivalent to the outer diameter of the laser modules. Rubber is an insulator, not a conductor, so the heat conductivity of the rubber grommet vs. that of the air around the device would be insignificant. In addition, the grommet itself covers only a small portion of the module so, even if the cap were fully twisted off to begin with, allowing the module to be close to flush with the MagLite, it would primarily only be in contact with the air inside of the MagLite, which would, of course, be warmer than the air outside (think about the principles behind a conventional oven).

There is no actual metal heatsink used for a few reasons:
  • I currently know of no custom-machined heatsinks that will precisely fit the MagLite while still allowing for room to connect the wires of the module to the battery terminals.
  • Heatsinks, even those made by hobbyists here (like jayrob, whose products I highly recommend), are quite expensive considering the $200 price tag of this BluRay laser. Even if I could obtain heatsinks with the right dimensions to do the job, they would cost in excess of $25/piece, over 10% of the laser's price. Again, we're in business to make profits, not losses.
  • When a respectable duty cycle, such as 30 seconds on / 30 off, is observed with the use of this laser, the diode will still have a very high lifespan for the power that it is outputting, regardless of the absense of a heatsink. When the module is warm to the touch, turn it off and let it rest. Seems simple enough to me.

With that said, the module does not stick out as a design principle put in place for heatsinking purposes. Rather, this is caused by limitation of the MagLite host itself. Yes, I could design lasers with different hosts, but this would also cause an increase in the price, which would inherently be absorbed by our customers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StrictlyBudget
all he's charging for is labour cost. why should his labour cost be higher than what our forum members charge for if his lasers are nothing special? that's not a great business proposal there.
Actually, I'm charging for the parts cost + the labor cost + the BUSINESS cost + profit (that's usually how things work in the world outside of LPF's B/S/T section). Every single time we make a sale, all of the following costs, plus more, must be taken into account before automatically assuming that I'm ripping people off:
  • BluRay Diode Cost
  • Constant Current Driver Cost
  • MagLite Host Cost
  • Lithium Battery Cost
  • Advertising Cost (avg. $20+ per conversion)
  • Web Hosting Cost
  • Web Design / Maintenance Cost (*time*)
  • Taxes
  • Shipping
  • 800 Number Cost
  • Warranty Fulfillment Cost
  • Merchant Account Fees
  • Software req'd for business (graphic design, etc)
  • Research and Development Costs (think piles of broken diodes - HUNDREDS of them)
  • and, of course, the TIME that it actually takes to build the device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyderz20x6
Well, he isn't an engineer. Because if he was, he would've been using drivers from the start.
For the record, I'm a 2nd year engineering student in college, and I am planning on transferring to UC Berkeley next year with a CIS / EE combined major (just in case anybody was wondering).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GooeyGus
The guy unscrewing the bolt from your oil pan doesn't have any training that you couldn't learn on the internet in about 5 minutes.

The bottom line here is point of reference. YOU all think it's too expensive because you know what the components cost. If I showed a laser that could burn something to someone without that knowledge, they would think 200 is pretty cheap.

Who gets to draw the line between 'hobby grade' and 'professional' lasers? This guy has obviously had the training required to build a laser because he's doing it. Most companies out there probably started with what you would assume is 'hobby grade'. Why are they considered hobby grade? Just because he bought the host and other parts from another business? This guy could be an electrical engineer and thus be very qualified to assemble and design these parts but you all are drawing conclusions about his knowledge and his quality of building.

GooeyGus had a valid point in that most of today's commercially available products, namely in the technology industry, started out looking very much 'hobby grade'. How many people on LPF can honestly say that they knew exactly what they were doing when they first started building lasers? When I first got into the field of laser manufacturing *as a hobbyist*, I found a way to build cheap yet relatively-reliable laser pointers that were based off KipKay's hack with the addition of a positioning grommet and a push-button switch. As many thousands of Americans (and people all over the world) have done, I developed a business model around such devices and soon began marketing and selling them. There was a niche market to cater to, and I found myself to be in an effective position to cater to such a market.


Hope that helps put things into perspective.

- Justin


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Old 12-09-2008, 07:59 PM #56
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Software req'd for business
Which of those aren't free? :

Quote:
Research and Development Costs (think piles of broken diodes - HUNDREDS of them)
Tons of "R&D" has been done here.I would bet that you didn't discover the abnormal high power of the diode from the PHR sleds yourself.And are you basically saying that you killed hundreds of diodes before achieving a stable design? :

Btw, shipping for the parts should be included in the production costs.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:53 PM #57
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by GooeyGus
The guy unscrewing the bolt from your oil pan doesn't have any training that you couldn't learn on the internet in about 5 minutes.

The bottom line here is point of reference. YOU all think it's too expensive because you know what the components cost. If I showed a laser that could burn something to someone without that knowledge, they would think 200 is pretty cheap.

Who gets to draw the line between 'hobby grade' and 'professional' lasers? This guy has obviously had the training required to build a laser because he's doing it. Most companies out there probably started with what you would assume is 'hobby grade'. Why are they considered hobby grade? Just because he bought the host and other parts from another business? This guy could be an electrical engineer and thus be very qualified to assemble and design these parts but you all are drawing conclusions about his knowledge and his quality of building.
i have nothing to say, since you are persistent on defending that guy. you win. you're probably right. i was too harsh about it. i knew the fact that it could've cheaper.
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:05 PM #58
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Really guys, stay mature about this. He's just a guy that shares our love for lasers, and he's trying to make a living out of it. How would you like it if some guy walked into yout work place and yelled at your boss every single thing you ever did wrong in the workplace?
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:28 PM #59
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

The prices for the red lasers may be a bit high, but I don't think Nitrox Lasers' current prices for the Blu-Ray are unreasonable (except for the 25 mW model, which costs $239.99). In fact, $184.99 for the "holiday edition" of the 150 mW model is a very good price, especially when there is a further 10% discount. In comparison, a 150 mW Blu-Ray laser from IgorT costs $250.

However, I do think the hosts used in the lasers are rather crude and look somewhat unprofessional. Perhaps you could take a look at the hosts used by LPF members and consider using a better one? Just don't copy our members' designs verbatim, LOL.

Oh, and one more thing. The purpose of this thread was to discuss the OP's video, not to debate about company ethics. Could someone, perhaps Avery, split this thread and move the debates to the "Companies" forum?
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:28 AM #60
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfd64
The prices for the red lasers may be a bit high, but I don't think Nitrox Lasers' current prices for the Blu-Ray are unreasonable (except for the 25 mW model, which costs $239.99). In fact, $184.99 for the "holiday edition" of the 150 mW model is a very good price, especially when there is a further 10% discount. In comparison, a 150 mW Blu-Ray laser from IgorT costs $250.

However, I do think the hosts used in the lasers are rather crude and look somewhat unprofessional. Perhaps you could take a look at the hosts used by LPF members and consider using a better one? Just don't copy our members' designs verbatim, LOL.

Oh, and one more thing. The purpose of this thread was to discuss the OP's video, not to debate about company ethics. Could someone, perhaps Avery, split this thread and move the debates to the "Companies" forum?
Ya, but for some reason, IgorT's lasers look ten times better... :
I can't figure out why... Is it the host? Or the heatsink?
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:59 AM #61
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Default Re: NitroxLasers ML BluExtreme x150

Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfd64
The prices for the red lasers may be a bit high, but I don't think Nitrox Lasers' current prices for the Blu-Ray are unreasonable (except for the 25 mW model, which costs $239.99). In fact, $184.99 for the "holiday edition" of the 150 mW model is a very good price, especially when there is a further 10% discount. In comparison, a 150 mW Blu-Ray laser from IgorT costs $250.

However, I do think the hosts used in the lasers are rather crude and look somewhat unprofessional. Perhaps you could take a look at the hosts used by LPF members and consider using a better one? Just don't copy our members' designs verbatim, LOL.

Oh, and one more thing. The purpose of this thread was to discuss the OP's video, not to debate about company ethics. Could someone, perhaps Avery, split this thread and move the debates to the "Companies" forum?
see somebody here said it's unprofessional.

it's possible to draw a line between hobby and professional-grade. you just have to look at it and say what you feel.
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