Old 01-08-2015, 05:50 PM #97
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

It wouldn't be the best idea to use a laser in self defense. As the legal side would have grave consequences for you for a number of reasons and prosecutors and the "blindee" would end up with more against you than you would have; even in legitimate self defense scenarios. You'd honestly be better off shooting and killing somebody in legit self defense because it's easily more justifiable and happens on a regular basis. Using a laser leaves you open to being sued by the person,fined or prosecuted by the DA and all kinds of things. Not to mention bringing the laser community down and making it look bad in the news to general public. It's better to just carry a fire arm for self defense.

EDIT: You can see just how "iffy" it is on the legal side of things even for a gun by taking a Concealed Carry class, and can better understand the even riskier legalities of blinding someone in self defense with laser.



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Old 01-08-2015, 06:01 PM #98
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by LSRFAQ View Post
Do the math. His 2-5 visible CW watts into a 5 foot cone into 25 foot is well above NOHD at one step forward into the beam at two and blows the NOHD everywhere at five watts.

I didn't come up with Batman. But I do sort of approve. When he asked me if I wished I could have upped the power, that is the clue that something is not quite right. I would not have needed increased power at all. In fact there is a clever technique to reduce it down to milliwatts.

I have spent plenty of time in Less then Lethal land. Both Audio and Visual. Got to take a hit of nearly everything LTL but the Millimeter Wave. My boss tried it for me. Stood down range of my own optical and auditory products, too.

Primary requirement in that line of work, you are your own test monkey.

So are we going to take this thread so far as to teach people how far they can push eye exposure? On a forum mainly about having fun with pointers, occupied mainly by young people who , for the most part, do not have the test gear, nor the product engineering experience to ensure safe guards?

This forum is here to educate and teach, and sell, and help with safety. Not to create possible accidents.
Upon this rock of technology comes often the need for Engineering Ethics.

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This thread's tenor is that that laser is not a candidate for an immediate use close range self-defense device.
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Old 01-08-2015, 06:18 PM #99
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by signalsoldier View Post
It wouldn't be the best idea to use a laser in self defense. As the legal side would have grave consequences for you for a number of reasons and prosecutors and the "blindee" would end up with more against you than you would have; even in legitimate self defense scenarios. You'd honestly be better off shooting and killing somebody in legit self defense because it's easily more justifiable and happens on a regular basis. Using a laser leaves you open to being sued by the person,fined or prosecuted by the DA and all kinds of things. Not to mention bringing the laser community down and making it look bad in the news to general public. It's better to just carry a fire arm for self defense.

EDIT: You can see just how "iffy" it is on the legal side of things even for a gun by taking a Concealed Carry class, and can better understand the even riskier legalities of blinding someone in self defense with laser.
Even the LRAD guys are getting sued-hearing loss and discomfort is worth $100K to the violent demonstrators(turned victims).

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Old 01-08-2015, 06:31 PM #100
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Even the LRAD guys are getting sued-hearing loss and discomfort is worth $100K to the violent demonstrators(turned victims).

It is also TOO easy use a box on a confined person. Guns sort of come with this social guarantee of an investigation in most places.

Laser Dazzlers have saved lives in Afghanistan and in Hati. Places where the local population was either scared or about to riot. 50 mW of Red on a Man's chest in daylight is a powerful warning. Or for warning the locals as they approached a convoy or check point too fast.

But up close, its approaching a weapon.

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Old 01-08-2015, 06:42 PM #101
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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It is also TOO easy use a box on a confined person. Guns sort of come with this social guarantee of an investigation in most places.

Laser Dazzlers have saved lives in Afghanistan and in Hatti. Places where the local population was either scared or about to riot. 50 mW of Red on a Man's chest in daylight is a powerful warning. Or for warning the locals as they approached a convoy or check point too fast.

But up close, its approaching a weapon.

Steve
Also, that is being used in an environment where you can't be sued or or where there is not any real organized criminal or law enforcement system. So lasers in a military use, for defense? In my opinion perfectly fine. But not in a civilized environment like down the street walking my dog.

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Old 01-08-2015, 07:10 PM #102
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by LSRFAQ View Post
It is also TOO easy use a box on a confined person. Guns sort of come with this social guarantee of an investigation in most places.

Laser Dazzlers have saved lives in Afghanistan and in Hati. Places where the local population was either scared or about to riot. 50 mW of Red on a Man's chest in daylight is a powerful warning. Or for warning the locals as they approached a convoy or check point too fast.

But up close, its approaching a weapon.

Steve
You're talking about laser target designators on 'guns', that's stretching it.

There would be NO rioter/looting/self-defense mitigation in Ferguson using only a laser device. With herd mentality, low IQ and no perceived danger... even the LRAD was even being laughed off.

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Old 01-08-2015, 07:20 PM #103
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Also, that is being used in an environment where you can't be sued or or where there is not any real organized criminal or law enforcement system. So lasers in a military use, for defense? In my opinion perfectly fine. But not in a civilized environment like down the street walking my dog.
Yup, In Chicago you have 2 seconds, from the car/curb to beat down, it's the 'Knockout game' and you can watch your vid later when your attacker posts it on worldstarhiphop.com. You can't even laser paint/intimidate your predator in that short time. They drive to nice white neighborhoods from the slum south side, got a off duty cop(CC) last summer with his wife-a guy who lives 'situational awareness'.

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Old 01-08-2015, 07:42 PM #104
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Yup, In Chicago you have 2 seconds, from the car/curb to beat down, it's the 'Knockout game' and you can watch your vid later on worldstarhiphop.com. You can't even laser paint/intimidate your predator in that short time. They drive to nice white neighborhoods from the slum south side, got a off duty cop(CC) last summer with his wife-a guy who lives 'situational awareness'.
And that too, completely ignoring the legal consequences, the practicality of it is very very extremely situational and limited. It's just not viable.

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Old 01-09-2015, 02:13 AM #105
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Do the math. His 2-5 visible CW watts into a 5 foot cone into 25 foot is well above NOHD at one step forward into the beam at two and blows the NOHD everywhere at five watts. Without proper conditioning of the beam, it will have hot spots. Do not assume that less then two watts is safe, either. There is a probability curve for when the damage will occur.

NOHD is a statistical probability. The closer you get to the high end of it, the more likely you are to do actual damage.
Most laser safety and optical thresholds are calculated not to ensure any damage of all, but to have a low probability of damage occuring. NOHD is the one where the probability of damage is close to unity, ie will occur.

Ie, A 1 in 10,000 chance of some damage or death might be acceptable to Law Enforcement in a emergency. A 1 in 100,000 chance of death might be acceptable when doing off road racing.

I didn't come up with Batman. But I do sort of approve. When he asked me if I wished I could have upped the power, that is the clue that something is not quite right. I would not have needed increased power at all. In fact there is a clever technique to reduce it down to milliwatts. Scanning is one such way.

I have spent plenty of time in Less then Lethal land. Both Audio and Visual. Got to take a hit of nearly everything LTL but the Millimeter Wave. My boss tried it for me. Stood down range of my own optical and auditory products, too.

Primary requirement in that line of work, you are your own test monkey.

So are we going to take this thread so far as to teach people how far they can push eye exposure? On a forum mainly about having fun with pointers. Occupied mainly by young people who , for the most part, do not have the test gear, nor the product engineering experience to ensure safe guards?

This forum is here to educate and teach, and sell, and help with safety. Not to create possible accidents.
Upon this rock of technology comes often the need for Engineering Ethics. That is a valid branch of this discussion.



Steve
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Sorry about the Batman / Steve mix-up....I wasn't paying attention. All sarcasm and BS posts aside, you make a good point with respect to where I was expecting this thread to lead? The truth is, I didn't have any destination in mind. I completely understand the reality of posts regarding the "unmentionable" and the fact that they seem to inevitably lead to the same sort of discussions. But what if this time it didn't? What if it lead somewhere else?

Phaser Array got it spot on when he mentioned that I was an Industrial Designer, and that we are a different breed. Industrial Design (ID) is not a well understood field, the few people who have even heard of it usually think it's either some type of technical artist, or a type of engineering. In actuality, ID can't really be described the way that other professions can. While it is a formal profession with a formal degree, neither the profession nor the degree has very much to do with what ID is.

This isn't the place to describe Industrial Design in detail, so I will summarize it for you and you'll just have to take my word for it. Industrial Design is problem solving. The degree is both very technical and very creative. In fact, I almost changed majors because we didn't have any electives, and the intensive class load was so bizarre....every class I took was required, and many of them were seemingly unrelated? It wasn't the very end that I finally understood what ID was all about.

It's not an education, it's a reprogramming of your thought process. The tangible part is a skill set that relies on completely changing the way that you think and see the world. The thought process of an Industrial Designer is what I like to call "unrestrained utilitarianism". To an Industrial Designer, there are no "dead ends"...and nothing is ever taken for granted, for example, the fact that a car deteriorates as it gets older. But why? Why not a car that gets BETTER with age? Of course that's ridiculous for a variety of reasons. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. The thought process of an Industrial Designer begins with a problem that needs to be solved. The very first step is to begin to ask questions, and no question or idea is off limits. You see, even though you might know that a car cannot physically improve with age and use, asking the question and exploring the idea often leads to unexpected places that you never would have found if you weren't willing to look in tat direction.

The point is, think of all of the incredible things we have now...like the products from Apple for example, you can't achieve those kinds of innovations if you don't know how to break the rules. If your thought process follows the status quo, or if you're afraid to "step off the path", you'll never discover anything amazing.

Back to the beginning...where did I think this was going to go, especially with the strong president set by all of the former discussions of this topic? I didn't "think" it was going to go anywhere, I just wanted it to go somewhere, and if were lucky, we might just discover some neat things along the way.

best ~ nick

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Old 02-19-2015, 05:28 AM #106
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Well, I think at here in Indonesia, I never see law officers use dazzler. But in my opinion, dazzler in not very effective in short range with many people that threaten you (just like a riot). I think dazzler is just to not focusing the beam, rather than to disperse it. I got modified, simple one, using the lense of unused old camera. Pretty spot at 10 meters - 50 cm diameter. If that should bring anyone that threaten your life, may be your family, I would take it as last protection to survive, at a risk that might permanently damaging the person who threaten my life. In my country, no civil have a lethal weapon like gun (except those who have permission), so this dazzler is one of my defence weapon, beside stun gun.

(edit) : got one 532nm at 100 mW

Last edited by EnjoyJakarta; 02-19-2015 at 05:29 AM. Reason: power of my 532nm
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Old 03-03-2015, 03:44 AM #107
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

crashmiget,

Although I do understand the concerns voiced here as well, I personally feel that the potential risks associated with discussing topics like this to our hobby are far out weighed by the enormously valuable information that such a discussion would most likely generate.

Sure. If we suddenly changed the forum categories around to include "weaponry" as a primary subject, and included sub-catagories on topics like "most effective offensive/defensive wavelength," "tactical blinding," or "Dazzle or Die," then people might somehow get the wrong idea and start imagining how their neighborhoods will be once all the local hoods start carrying around and using their little light-sabers to wreak havok with their white boards.

In all seriousness though. I'm actually pleased to see that there are people in this world able to look at new technologies and identify the potential risks (or benefits) not normally associated with them, and then bring those observations to a location where open, honest, informed, and yes, a little wary discussion can occur. Done in such a manner, I can hardly find fault with the topic or the poster on the rare occasion such a topic might appear.

However! Should anyone wish to carry these discussions any further, I would be more than willing to dedicate a few pages for discussion on the subject on one of my blog sites dedicated to topics such as this. - policetacdotwordpressdotcom

As an instructor of the martial arts, I've actually given this topic a little bit of serious consideration and thought over the years.

But I'll voice those insights on the new page I just mentioned... lol

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Old 03-05-2015, 04:19 AM #108
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Hi Policetac,

Great idea! I think that having a smaller less public place to discuss the more sensitive aspects of our hobby would be ideal. In truth, I have a lot more information than I can responsibly share here, and plenty of questions and ideas that may be ethically questionable, especially in a highly visible forum like LPF.

I will definitely take you up on your offer. I'm away for a few days, but I'll check out your blog when I get back.

best ~ crash
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:29 AM #109
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

An old thread, yes. I was just curious about this subject, and I'm suprised and a bit amused that the general advice is "don't use lasers for self-defense, it might cause permanent injury and blind someone. Better use a gun!" As if a gun won't cause permanent injury or even death? I know I'd pick getting blinded over getting killed, but that's just me..

Anyway, touchy subject I know. And I honestly don't think lasers at the current form we have available is practical as a self-defense weapon. Not due to the risk of causing permanent injury as I wouldn't give a flying f*** about the wellbeing of someone attacking me, but purely because a laser in itself has no real stopping power unless you have a lab-sized pulsed laser, which nobody can carry around in their pocket anyway....
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:52 AM #110
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

During one earlier discussion with BobMc about his dazzler I found on web this student work on this topic:
https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstr...493_DATA_1.pdf

I do not know about what grade they got for it, but at least there is a lot of good information related to the topic. You might want to see it to get more understanding how exactly dazzlers work.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:19 AM #111
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Self defense is up close, if you blind someone at a distance you are an attacker.

Typically when someone takes out a laser pointer in self defense it gets taken away from them, so as self defense is defined as being in fear of immediate and immanent harm you could only use it at a distance if someone is shooting at you, in which case you should flee, there are very limited times when a laser would be appropriate, end of the world, WROL, SHTF type scenarios, otherwise it's the wrong tool for the job, the legal aftermath would also very bad for you.

A person would need a cluster of diodes such as a double block of 16 1w green diodes with a wide angle of high intensity light to disorient quickly allowing you to get away, because if you did manage to shine a pocket laser in an attackers eye they might grab you even if they cant see you and cut you open from your butthole to your mouth, pepper spray, a firearm, even a real tazer would be a better option, a laser at real up close true self defense distances could get you hurt, you would be better off to give a beating or take a beating, but if you lase someone in their face at real self defense distance you had better be ready to kill them or run away first and then lase them if they pursue you, but again the legal aftermath would likely go against you and you won't have a laser in jail.

It's the wrong tool and a very bad idea.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:37 AM #112
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

BTW self defense is not only related against human attacks. Consider wildlife as well. I'm very often visiting forest, day or night. I meet a lot of animals. Usually they are ok. However last summer I was directly attacked by alpha male deer - roebuck. I was very surprised as these animals usually run away immediately after they notice you. No usual methods of detering worked - the last, I tried in final moment just before my butt was about to be teared apart, was my WL Evo - 100 mW of 532 nm was sufficient to force the deer turn around and run away screaming. I did not shined into his eyes, just put the dot close to him on ground and followed him with it like 300 meters far into safe distance. Now I meet him regulary (not only) during my night laserpainting trips. I always keep some greenie handy when I hear him nearby.
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"Lasers are s3xy."
"That feeling when you see colours as their wavelengths."
"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."
"If you do not feel and experience the magic, you cannot become the master of wizardry."


Current collection:
405 nm | 500 mW | Wicked Lasers Lunar
445 nm | 3.5 W | Wicked Lasers Arctic
473 nm | 100 mW | Jet Lasers PL-E Pro
520 nm | 1 W | Wicked Lasers Krypton
532 nm | 100 mW | Wicked Lasers Evo
532 nm | 800 mW | Sky Lasers PL

532 nm | 1.4+ W | Optotronics RPL-II
589 nm | 50 mW | Dragon Lasers Spartan
635 nm | 750 mW | Wicked Lasers Inferno
1 W RGB projector
(+ some laser pointers)

Laserpainting art:
LPF thread: Radim's Laserpainting Art, Complexity Philosophy and The Surreal World

Last edited by Radim; 05-24-2017 at 06:38 AM.
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