Old 11-25-2014, 08:27 AM #49
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by Reiign View Post
I have a question maybe for people in countries as strict as ours. (pepper spray, bb guns and everything else of similar orientation) are illegal here. So can anyone shine some light on things we could use to deter people. I live in a pretty shady part of melbourne. (had people looking through our window at night whilst their car was on and running out the front) That was 3am i ran out with a breaker bar and they legged it. I was going to build a tazer but i can see that ending badly as amps can kill if not set up right. I did also consider laser pointers. But to be honest it seems pointless.
That's what I've been wondering about myself. I live in the USA. We basically can't have that stuff either. The criminals on the other hand always do so wtf?
It basically forces civilians to either become victims to all situations or make us ignore the law and become criminals ourselves by simply protecting us from attackers.



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Old 11-25-2014, 09:44 AM #50
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

There are some airguns out there that work with .25 pellets and can do some serious harm. Some airrifles can reach 1600ft p/s.
Or take a pumpgun and pump it 10 times and have the force of real gun.
Still all legal and possible without a permision. You only need to be +18.

FYI on eye damage from lasers and distances see this image
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Old 11-25-2014, 10:59 AM #51
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by Treser View Post
There are some airguns out there that work with .25 pellets and can do some serious harm. Some airrifles can reach 1600ft p/s.
Or take a pumpgun and pump it 10 times and have the force of real gun.
Still all legal and possible without a permision. You only need to be +18.

FYI on eye damage from lasers and distances see this image
air gun as in a potato gun? If you miss you are kind fecked tho lol i did see a full auto air gun that was pretty impressive tho and airsoft guns etc are all illegal here. I know some markets sometimes sell them for around 30 bucks but its now a rarity here. Last one i seen was an rc army tank that you drove and shot them with lol
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Old 11-25-2014, 07:08 PM #52
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
That's what I've been wondering about myself. I live in the USA. We basically can't have that stuff either. The criminals on the other hand always do so wtf?
It basically forces civilians to either become victims to all situations or make us ignore the law and become criminals ourselves by simply protecting us from attackers.
Pepper spray, tasers, and most other less/non-lethal self defense devices are generally 100% legal in the USA. Some states have restrictions on the purchase and use of less-lethal and non-lethal devices.

Also, I'm not sure I understand why a laser that isn't focused is more effective than a really bright flashlight. I know that I personally carry a small tactical pocket flashlight that has a 800 lumen strobe that is painful to look at even indirectly off a close up surface. This is actual lumen output and not "eBay claimed" output. The light does get hot , but the duty cycle is long enough that it can be run for more than long enough for any confrontation.

So I guess my question is this: Why risk permanent eye damage when there are some very bright disorienting strobe flashlights on the market that will do the job of disorienting and deterring?

This is the flashlight that I carry:

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Old 11-25-2014, 07:53 PM #53
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by The Lightning Stalker View Post
IR lasers as a NV illuminator has been
discussed before. At best you will get a
narrow bar of light too intense for a gen 3
to deal with and a nearly invisible eye
hazard. LED is really the best way. If it
is too intense indoors, then dimming or a
separate low power LED should do the trick.
My experience using an IR laser as a NV illuminator has been the opposite, it's worked well. I only have "Gen 1 Digital" but both, using the focused beam's diffused light to light up an area, and un-focusing it to light it up directly works really well. Just as good or better than the IR illuminator I have.

@ Treser

I'm definitely a fan of air rifles, they fill their niche and can technically be lethal to a human, but so is a pencil and neither should be a first choice for self defense. Also, there isn't a pump gun out there with the force of a "real gun".
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:27 PM #54
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

@TheDukeAnumber from what I understand the American and Canadian pump guns have a special valve relief that will keep the power output of the gun under the legal limit.
The ones we can get in NZ don't have such a max pressure valve what makes it as strong as the times you pump the gun. For clearing the gun you need at least 3 pumps and in the manual they advice 10 times for 600 ft/s. Do you can pump them also 20 times when you have the time and energy ;-)
But I agree the power of a real gun is better but doesn't give you any stealth capabilities with the noise pollution it creates plus the price of real bullets is way out of the price of pellets.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:45 PM #55
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by Treser View Post
@TheDukeAnumber from what I understand the American and Canadian pump guns have a special valve relief that will keep the power output of the gun under the legal limit.
The ones we can get in NZ don't have such a max pressure valve what makes it as strong as the times you pump the gun. For clearing the gun you need at least 3 pumps and in the manual they advice 10 times for 600 ft/s. Do you can pump them also 20 times when you have the time and energy ;-)
But I agree the power of a real gun is better but doesn't give you any stealth capabilities with the noise pollution it creates plus the price of real bullets is way out of the price of pellets.
There are power limitations in Europe for airguns but not in the US. A low velocity .22 caliber bullet is greatly more powerful than any pump gun. 600fps on a 16gr pellet is nothing compared a 40gr round and with your pump guns you have diminishing returns on the # of pumps, 20 pumps won't get you even close "real gun power".
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Old 11-25-2014, 11:30 PM #56
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

At this rate there will probaby be a post from a mod saying, thread closed. I wont be able to post that "i told you so" either haha
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Old 11-26-2014, 01:04 AM #57
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

@OP

where to start??

it may have made NO diff..but your first thread should have been your personal intro in our Welcome section.

Most here have N/P giving our (at least general location)

I had to quit reading after your 4th set of bricks.

TMI dood

use your LED flashlight --most other 'carriers' would at least 'consider' sending a bullet towards place the laser beam came from.

No need to put your list of mantoys more than once (if at all)

what was your question ..again..

I know a lot of bouncers and have been one-- its SOP= bad move.


slow your roll-

add yr 20
make yr intro
Not really too late to make a (better) first impression.

ps HOW could you NOT know that handheld lasers may soon become illegal??
and WHY!!!


hak
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:27 AM #58
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

I'm going to remove myself from this discussion. While I am on many forums, I rarely if ever participate. This thread is a perfect example of why I prefer to communicate with people in person. It amazes me how inconsistent and judgmental people can be, especially when it serves no purpose. My impression is that there is a certain type of person who constantly feels the need to assert or maintain their perceived position in a given hierarchy by highlighting anything that they can criticize, making uninformed judgments based on irrelevant or out of context information, and often making thinly veiled insults of a personal nature without having any relevant or meaningful information to support it.

On the other hand, I want to thank everyone who gave their time to offer information, suggestions and even offer constructive criticism. Most of what I read was interesting and some of it was quite informative. I actually got exactly what I was hoping to get out of this discussion, so for me, it was time well spent. Unfortunately,
a handful of completely useless criticism, inaccurate and uninformed judgments, and a handful of insults of a somewhat personal nature have left me with a very bad impression.

In my initial post I tried to be as clear and articulate as possible in expressing my motivation for starting this thread. I also thought I made it clear that I was not completely familiar with all of the rules and regulations regarding posting a thread, and to please forgive me if I had made any mistakes. Additionally, I also highlighted the sensitive nature of this topic, explained what information I was interested in, and mentioned that I had not found the type of data I was after in any of the other similar threads. Lastly, I suggested that if anyone felt that this topic was inappropriate or made anyone uncomfortable, that they should suggest it be deleted, and that I would completely understand.

Again, thank you to most of you who gave your time to respond with interesting or relevant information and or criticisms. I appreciate it. For the handful of you who felt it necessary to inject negativity into what I had hoped would be a constructive discussion,
I hope that this last message will serve as an example of how to communicate with people in a meaningful, pro-social manner that encourages sharing thoughts and ideas.

Enjoy your holiday ~ Crash
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:43 AM #59
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Crash I am surprised how much you like to write :-)
But didn't you say, already in the beginning of this topic, that you expected that some commenter’s would get itchy with your questions.
So knowing that and seeing how it worked out after a few days I believe there is no reason to complain.
Topic is still alive nobody died or divorced and there is nothing said that the daylight could not see.
Thanks for your thoughts and questions. Always like something out of the ordinary ;-)
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Old 11-26-2014, 02:32 PM #60
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Hi All,

I have been on this forum for a while and while I have had quite a few private conversations, this is my first official thread. I know that this issue is a bit taboo, and it should be for a variety of reasons, but after reading everything that I can find on the subject, there is very little information that is of any use. Not sure exactly where to start, but bear with me for a bit as I have a lot of experience with both lethal and less-than-lethal weaponry. I cringe at even using the word "weaponry" here, as I don't want to get into a discussion that even suggests lasers as weapons, but the fact remains that anything can be a weapon, I could slap someone with this laptop if I had too.

My interest here is in any information regarding a high powered handheld laser, let's say 2.5w - 3w 445nm (blue) laser, and it's ability to deter someone at a reasonable distance, let's say at least 10 - 15 meters away while being de-focused, perhaps a spot (rectangle) 5'-7' wide by maybe 2'-3' high? Would this be enough to stop them in their tracks, and more importantly, would this be overkill to the point of doing serious damage?

My interest in all of this comes from a point of practicality. I am a legal firearm owner, I have a carry permit, and a few pistols to choose from. More interestingly, I also own a variety of less-than-lethal weaponry. I currently own:

Taser X26 (legal for civilian to own and carry with FID Card in my state)
Tiberius Arms Tac 8 (w/Pepperball Kit) not legal for me to carry
Various Pepper Sprays, up to 1lb can of Bear Spray and 9oz can PepperGEL
JPX Jet Protector (A Tazer substitute, fires pepper spray 20' @ 400mph)
Lots of high power, quality flashlights including my favorite, the
Surefire UB3T Invictus (1000 lumens and strobe mode)-will mess you up!
I also have firearms in the home, I tend to lean towards my Remington 870 short barrel and have a variety of ammo including these special rounds Multiple Impact Ammunition Which if you haven't seen...you have to check it out...uber cool!

After having experience with all of these different types of defensive "tools", I have found that while each has their strengths, they also all suffer from a variety of limitations. For example, lethal force can be a sticky subject in court if you ever have to use it, especially outside of your home. Chemical sprays can be effective without risking legal issues over lethal force, however, if you're inside or very close, you may not want to use chemical sprays. Ditto on the Pepperball gun, great outside, not for use inside, and may lead to legal issues. All in all, if I am out and about, not at home, I have been most comfortable with the idea of using a very powerful flashlight, like my Surefire 1000 lumens on strobe. It is however rather large and heavy compared with my lasers of which I have quite a few. My favorite is my homemade 445 which has one of DTR's 9mm diodes and one of his 2.4 amp X-Drives with a G2 lens. I used a beautiful Gerber TX 3.0 flashlight for the host, and made an exceptional focusing ring offering very quick focusing.

It has occurred to me on several occasions that this laser, de-focused to maybe a 5' to 7' rectangle would be a very effective deterrent, but I am afraid to try it even at much greater distances because I don't know what kind of damage it could do, and I have no way of measuring it short of asking one of my buddies to hit me in the face from 100' feet away, which is not something I am about to do. Is it possible to get data on the power of a de-focused beam from a distance? If so, I would gladly pay someone to do some research if they have the equipment. Of course I am expecting to get a lot of replies about safety and being nuts etc., but I am serious, I really think there is some value in having some data on de-focused beam strength at known distances. I should add that I am very careful with all of my lasers and never let anyone else even touch them, I mean that. My friends are welcome to come over and go shooting all they want in my backyard (I live in the middle of nowhere), but my lasers are always off limits. I don't mess around with safety and I'm not some yahoo trying to figure out if I can hurt someone with my laser. I am very serious about getting some information and hopefully some data.

Sorry this was so long, but I felt it necessary to fully explain my interest, and also explain that I am a responsible adult with a legitimate interest in the topic.

Thanks All ~ Crash
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:08 PM #61
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

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Originally Posted by crashmidget View Post
I'm going to remove myself from this discussion. While I am on many forums, I rarely if ever participate. This thread is a perfect example of why I prefer to communicate with people in person.
Please don't - you started an discussion that I found interesting and I found the mix of responses interesting. It's good to see how different people think/feel. It would be boring if everybody was the same and everybody agreed.
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Old 11-28-2014, 12:16 AM #62
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by clansley View Post
Please don't - you started an discussion that I found interesting and I found the mix of responses interesting. It's good to see how different people think/feel. It would be boring if everybody was the same and everybody agreed.

Thanks Clansley,

I appreciate you're comment. Perhaps I'll stick around a bit longer.
I too was finding some of the information very interesting. I think the to
keeping discussions on topic is to avoid as much personal information as
possible. I am definitely guilty of sharing personal info. I think I'll try to
keep going a bit with this thread and make more of an effort to stick to
the topic. Thanks Clansley, you're wisdom has changed my mind ~

later ~ Crash
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Old 11-28-2014, 05:32 AM #63
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashmidget View Post
Thanks Clansley,

I appreciate you're comment. Perhaps I'll stick around a bit longer.
I too was finding some of the information very interesting. I think the to
keeping discussions on topic is to avoid as much personal information as
possible. I am definitely guilty of sharing personal info. I think I'll try to
keep going a bit with this thread and make more of an effort to stick to
the topic. Thanks Clansley, you're wisdom has changed my mind ~

later ~ Crash
Well it didn't go so bad despite the nature of the thread topic. Trust me it could have seriously gone worse. If anything good has shown it's that you aren't a coward
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:36 AM #64
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Default Re: Self-Defense ~ Bear with me for a moment!

You're right, it could have gone badly, and usually this topic does. I think the key to discussing it is to really to try to keep the discussion strictly about the technology, and avoid any discussion about usage. By "usage", I mean any discussion or speculation about what types of personal defense situations one may find themselves in, how they would use the technology and how effective it would be. In truth, almost all of the discussions about usage that I have read on this topic are pure speculation. I have found very few posts dealing with usage that are based on a persons first hand experience in a real situation.

I think that this is a topic a lot of us think about, and I think it's an important one.
Speculation about how, when and why it would be used is not relevant here. This is primarily a forum about the science, technology and engineering of lasers. If we can stick to discussing data and technical information about this topic, I think we begin to have more informative discussions and avoid the pitfalls of a taboo subject.

~Crash
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