New law? New enforcement?

pseudonomen137 said:

mikeeey, I'm sorry the word 'illegal' has other meanings to you, and I can see where you're coming from. Still though, is a major company defrauding consumers of billions of dollars violent? Not really, but it is still illegal.

You probably only saw mention of it around LPF because its one of the few major laser forums around, and afterall its not like the sellers want to advertise it. One of the key documents you'll want to check out is 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11 (from the FDA/CDRH). Its not like the gov't is going around with posters saying that lasers are illegal, but the laws are there that clearly explain the illegality of importing non-accessioned class IIIB and IV lasers to the US.

Also, Razako, I don't quite remember where this whole "don't use EMS" thing came from, but I know it didn't come from anyone qualified to make the statement. When nearly all our orders are shipped with EMS shipping, its no big surprise (to me at least?) that all the reports of confiscated packages used EMS shipping. Just because you ship it slower, doesn't mean customs ain't gunna come snooping around if they feel like it.

Also, simply having a laser with the "safety features" does not necessarily mean customs won't snag it. Unless the laser in question is < classIIIB, or it has an accession number, you're taking a risk importing it - key switches or not.

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thanks for clearing that all up pseudonomen.
could you explain radiation to me? cause the word is used so much on the website (here it is for the rest of you: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1040.10)
I know what radiation is, but not any definition close to lasers. Basically I'm just trying to find a definition pertaining to lasers, which so far I haven't. When I think radiation I think a hazardous deadly substance.

Artix said:

There is no law enforcement for laser importing here in Canada! And even if I decide to get a green laser, I can just go to Nova! They are about a 20 minute drive from where I live

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haha lucky!!! i wanna come visit! so have you actually gone there? do they let you tour the building and see their different lasers? or what's it like?

I'm not sure if the FDA had a specific legal definition for radiation, but typically it'd refer to electromagnetic radiation. EM is pretty much any light, and encompasses everything from gamma radiation (what you're probably thinking about when you hear "radiation" like in movies) to radio waves and beyond. Included in that are all wavelengths of visible light, UV, IR, Microwaves, X-Rays, etc. They're actually all just different wavelengths on the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. More about all that jazz here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation

mikeeey said:

could you explain radiation to me? cause the word is used so much on the website (here it is for the rest of you: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1040.10)
I know what radiation is, but not any definition close to lasers. Basically I'm just trying to find a definition pertaining to lasers, which so far I haven't. When I think radiation I think a hazardous deadly substance.

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The problem here comes from the misuse of the word radiation. To radiate is simply to move out from a source. The act of radiating is termed radiation. The word radiation itself is pretty useless. It needs a descriptor or qualifier to have meaning.

electrical radiation (electricity radiating outward)
laser radiation (laser light radiating outward)
nuclear radiation (nuclear particles radiating outward)
heat radiation (heat radiating outward)

Pain can radiate. Sound can radiate. Smells can radiate. YOU can radiate.

The problem really comes from the media and the public shortening the term "nuclear radiation" down to simply "radiation." When a naive member of society hears "radiation" they think of "nuclear radiation." Most of the other types of "radiation" will not and/or cannot do cellular damage like nuclear radiation can. Laser radiation is dangerous, but NOT because it will pass through our body and damage your DNA. It is dangerous because it has high light energy that can be changed to heat energy when it strikes something like your retina.

Most radiation is not only safe, it is beneficial. Without solar radiation, life would cease to exist on this planet.

Peace,
dave

pseudonomen137 said:

mikeeey, I'm sorry the word 'illegal' has other meanings to you, and I can see where you're coming from. Still though, is a major company defrauding consumers of billions of dollars violent? Not really, but it is still illegal.

You probably only saw mention of it around LPF because its one of the few major laser forums around, and afterall its not like the sellers want to advertise it. One of the key documents you'll want to check out is 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11 (from the FDA/CDRH). Its not like the gov't is going around with posters saying that lasers are illegal, but the laws are there that clearly explain the illegality of importing non-accessioned class IIIB and IV lasers to the US.

Also, Razako, I don't quite remember where this whole "don't use EMS" thing came from, but I know it didn't come from anyone qualified to make the statement. When nearly all our orders are shipped with EMS shipping, its no big surprise (to me at least?) that all the reports of confiscated packages used EMS shipping. Just because you ship it slower, doesn't mean customs ain't gunna come snooping around if they feel like it.

Also, simply having a laser with the "safety features" does not necessarily mean customs won't snag it. Unless the laser in question is < classIIIB, or it has an accession number, you're taking a risk importing it - key switches or not.

Click to expand...

I thought customs checks EMS packages more carefully because more expensive/important items are typically shipped via EMS. They normally don't even open standard airmail packages from dx. The only people I know of who have had their DX lasers confiscated either used EMS or they live in Hawaii where customs are stricter.

I'm not looking for a fight or anything. I'm just stating that the overwhelming majority of airmail lasers from DX make it into the country with no problems.

daguin said:

[quote author=mikeeey link=1217115341/0#16 date=1217188482]
could you explain radiation to me? cause the word is used so much on the website (here it is for the rest of you: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1040.10)
I know what radiation is, but not any definition close to lasers. Basically I'm just trying to find a definition pertaining to lasers, which so far I haven't. When I think radiation I think a hazardous deadly substance.

Click to expand...

The problem here comes from the misuse of the word radiation.  To radiate is simply to move out from a source.  The act of radiating is termed radiation.  The word radiation itself is pretty useless.  It needs a descriptor or qualifier to have meaning.

electrical radiation (electricity radiating outward)
laser radiation (laser light radiating outward)
nuclear radiation (nuclear particles radiating outward)
heat radiation (heat radiating outward)

Pain can radiate. Sound can radiate.  Smells can radiate.  YOU can radiate.  

The problem really comes from the media and the public shortening the term "nuclear radiation" down to simply "radiation."  When a naive member of society hears "radiation" they think of "nuclear radiation."  Most of the other types of "radiation" will not and/or cannot do cellular damage like nuclear radiation can.  Laser radiation is dangerous, but NOT because it will pass through our body and damage your DNA.  It is dangerous because it has high light energy that can be changed to heat energy when it strikes something like your retina.

Most radiation is not only safe, it is beneficial.  Without solar radiation, life would cease to exist on this planet.

Peace,
dave
[/quote]
well said! thank you! I never knew the word was THAT misused lol. Infact I completely forgot about that other meaning of radiate. thanks for clearing that up.

Razako said:

[quote author=pseudonomen137 link=1217115341/0#14 date=1217185999]mikeeey, I'm sorry the word 'illegal' has other meanings to you, and I can see where you're coming from. Still though, is a major company defrauding consumers of billions of dollars violent? Not really, but it is still illegal.

You probably only saw mention of it around LPF because its one of the few major laser forums around, and afterall its not like the sellers want to advertise it. One of the key documents you'll want to check out is 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11 (from the FDA/CDRH). Its not like the gov't is going around with posters saying that lasers are illegal, but the laws are there that clearly explain the illegality of importing non-accessioned class IIIB and IV lasers to the US.

Also, Razako, I don't quite remember where this whole "don't use EMS" thing came from, but I know it didn't come from anyone qualified to make the statement. When nearly all our orders are shipped with EMS shipping, its no big surprise (to me at least?) that all the reports of confiscated packages used EMS shipping. Just because you ship it slower, doesn't mean customs ain't gunna come snooping around if they feel like it.

Also, simply having a laser with the "safety features" does not necessarily mean customs won't snag it. Unless the laser in question is < classIIIB, or it has an accession number, you're taking a risk importing it - key switches or not.

Click to expand...

I thought customs checks EMS packages more carefully because more expensive/important items are typically shipped via EMS. They normally don't even open standard airmail packages from dx. The only people I know of who have had their DX lasers confiscated either used EMS or they live in Hawaii where customs are stricter.

I'm not looking for a fight or anything. I'm just stating that the overwhelming majority of airmail lasers from DX make it into the country with no problems.[/quote]
i thought the same thing, although if you think about it it makes no sense lol. But coincidence? EMS packages have got confiscated and I have not heard any stories of air mail packages getting taken.

mention laser and I need more money in the same sentence and FIRE radiates from my wifes Head

john_lawson said:

mention laser and I need more money in the same sentence and FIRE radiates from my wifes Head

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But it IS an attractive fire that drew you to her in the first place . . . . Isn't it . . . .


<sheesh, Bro. I can't keep saving your ass like this.>

Peace,
dave

Oh yea She's "HOT" still wondering when she's going to turn around and tell me to get the %$#@ out .....

Kenom said:

Oh yeah. it's most certainly illegal to own and operate a laser without the safety features over 5mw. The only place your going to see any information about it really is on the FDA website. Since it's illegal to own them, it's pretty safe to assume that it's "illegal" to import them as well. Importing an illegal substance is illegal. Kinda redundant but that's spellin it out for those that don't see the connection.

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let's not pass the wrong facts . This is them unless the laws have recently changed
Importation of a laser over 5mw without the required FDA safety features is illegal.
It is not illegal to own or operate a laser 5mw or more.
Just take your time and read through the CDRH website for the can do's and can not's
Passing on incorrect info only causes confusion.

uh oh this ones gonna burn

From the various comments I infer that there is no problem (legal or otherwise) in buying lasers from a supplier within the US (assuming the buyer is also within). The FDA law does not apply, no customs, etc. Is this correct?

shep666 said:

From the various comments I infer that there is no problem (legal or otherwise) in buying lasers from a supplier within the US (assuming the buyer is also within). The FDA law does not apply, no customs, etc. Is this correct?

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If you buy the laser from a local reseller like optotronics then you don't need to worry about customs unless you live in Hawaii or possibly Alaska.

Ok, to try and assist steve here: selling and importing lasers over 5mW is illegal in the US unless the laser sold or imported meets FDA guidelines on lasers (including not only safety features, but ALSO documentation requirements).  There is nothing illegal about making a laser for your own use, as long as you aren't selling it.  You can buy components that are not classified as IIIb lasers, (ie diodes, optical burner drives, etc) and make your own IIIb laser perfectly legally, and possess and use it legally.  You cannot manufacture and sell that same laser. FDA rules govern all sale (including domestic sales) or importation of lasers, but not ownership or usage.

Also, this is only talking about US federal/FDA laws.  If you read enough, you'll find a place on the FDA site where it says that FDA regulates sale and import of lasers, while they leave it up to localities (states, cities, counties) to regulate possession and usage of lasers.  So lasers may be illegal in you locality in the US, but they are not illegal according to federal law.  

The reason you don't need to worry about Optotronics, etc. is because they are meeting FDA guidelines for reselling and importing, including safety features and documenting their products with the FDA.  It's not because they're domestic, it's because they're doing it within the law, not outside the law like DX does.

pullbangdead said:

Ok, to try and assist steve here: selling and importing lasers over 5mW is illegal in the US unless the laser sold or imported meets FDA guidelines on lasers (including not only safety features, but ALSO documentation requirements). There is nothing illegal about making a laser for your own use, as long as you aren't selling it. You can buy components that are not classified as IIIb lasers, (ie diodes, optical burner drives, etc) and make your own IIIb laser perfectly legally, and possess and use it legally. You cannot manufacture and sell that same laser. FDA rules govern all sale (including domestic sales) or importation of lasers, but not ownership or usage.

Also, this is only talking about US federal/FDA laws. If you read enough, you'll find a place on the FDA site where it says that FDA regulates sale and import of lasers, while they leave it up to localities (states, cities, counties) to regulate possession and usage of lasers. So lasers may be illegal in you locality in the US, but they are not illegal according to federal law.

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There are some states with laws preventing minors from owning >5mw pointers. I don't think that there are any state laws prohibiting minor ownership of purchased class 3b - class 4 non-portable lasers, but I've not checked lately.