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06-25-2017, 09:08 AM #81
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

I believe there are multiple big bangs, always have been, that our universe is much bigger than we think and the real universe includes trillions upon trillions of what we think of our lone universe, some tests have been done which have not given evidence whether such could be true, but science is trying! Maybe someday we will know.

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Attention new brothers of the collimated light!

Newbie advice: Please take the time to first make an introduction in the Welcome section before posting questions: - https://laserpointerforums.com/f37

Divergence to spot size calc: - 1 mRad is about .057 degrees which expands to be very roughly ~10% the diameter of the moon or sun at their distances.

Divergence Calculator: pseudonomen137's JScript mRad Calculator - Measure your lasers beam dia. at 1 foot & then 20'.

Online calc. to determine spot intensity at different mRad's & powers: http://tinyurl.com/divergence-calculator

Laser Power Density Calculator: Laser Power Density Calculator - Ophir

Build a beam expander to reduce divergence: http://tinyurl.com/BeamExpander

University YAG Project The Professor's Homebuilt Lasers Site - YAG Lasers

YAG Power Calc. Laser Peak Power Calculator - Ophir

Angular Size Calculator; use with diode angle of radiation spec. for lens dia. at FL: Angular Size Calculator

RHD's Relative Brightness vs Wavelength Calc: https://tinyurl.com/RHD-brightness

High Current Pulse Diode Drivers: https://tinyurl.com/ya7whuk3

06-25-2017, 09:24 AM #82
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diachi
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alaskan I believe there are multiple big bangs, always have been, that our universe is much bigger than we think and the real universe includes trillions upon trillions of what we think of our lone universe, some tests have been done which have not given evidence whether such could be true, but science is trying! Maybe someday we will know.
Science is still missing a lot of the answers. Many of the basic laws of physics are readily observable and verifiable, even for the average person, but a lot of it is still unproven theory. Even some things that we can observe, test, verify etc., we can't explain. We can understand it, model it and calculate it, but we can't really explain the why or the how. Much of Quantum Physics being a prime example of that.

We've come a long way, but we've got much, much more to learn. I think it's wise to take a lot of science with a grain of salt, at least the things that we can't yet actually prove to be real. I.e. don't take theories as being solid fact or truth. We have been wrong many, many times before. We'll be wrong again. Although, sometimes it's good to be wrong.

Dark matter? We can't find any evidence that it exists, but in order for our models of the universe to actually work, it must be there. So either dark matter is out there, or our models are incorrect and our understanding of the universe from a Physics point of view is flawed.

Even then... the universe and the unending, awesome power of nature may always give us another challenge to overcome and another mystery to solve.
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405nm | Banggood LT-850 | 50mW Metered | Review Unit | >>Review<<
445nm | Sanwu Laser Pocket Series | 400mW Metered
445nm | NDB7242E Pen Build | 60mW Metered | >>Build Thread<<
450nm | LaserPointerStore - Thor H2 | 1.6W Metered | Review Unit | >>Review<<
473nm | B&W Tek BWB-10-OEM |
488nm | Spectra Physics 163 Argon | ~30mW Metered |
495nm | Laser66 Pen Build | WIP
515nm | PL515 Pen Build | 50mW | >>Build Thread<<
520nm | Laserlands 520 5mW | 3mW Metered | Review Unit | >>Review<<
532nm | Gearbest 303 Pointer | 50mW Metered
532nm | Gearbest JD-850 Pointer | 30mW Metered |
633nm | HeNe | 6mW
633nm | Spectra Physics 155 HeNe | <1mW >>Thread<<
650nm | Sanwu Laser Pocket Series | 200mW Metered
808nm | Melles Griot 532nm Lab Unit | No Crystals >10W

B&W Tek Spectrometer
LaserBee 2.5W USB LPM

Last edited by diachi; 06-25-2017 at 09:27 AM.

06-25-2017, 09:26 AM #83
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Every generation so far has uncovered greater and greater understanding of what is really going on, but then the next one does it again to make their understanding obsolete, where this leap frogging it will end, could be many many generations from now, maybe never, maybe we are too limited to find the end of the rainbow.
__________________

Attention new brothers of the collimated light!

Newbie advice: Please take the time to first make an introduction in the Welcome section before posting questions: - https://laserpointerforums.com/f37

Divergence to spot size calc: - 1 mRad is about .057 degrees which expands to be very roughly ~10% the diameter of the moon or sun at their distances.

Divergence Calculator: pseudonomen137's JScript mRad Calculator - Measure your lasers beam dia. at 1 foot & then 20'.

Online calc. to determine spot intensity at different mRad's & powers: http://tinyurl.com/divergence-calculator

Laser Power Density Calculator: Laser Power Density Calculator - Ophir

Build a beam expander to reduce divergence: http://tinyurl.com/BeamExpander

University YAG Project The Professor's Homebuilt Lasers Site - YAG Lasers

YAG Power Calc. Laser Peak Power Calculator - Ophir

Angular Size Calculator; use with diode angle of radiation spec. for lens dia. at FL: Angular Size Calculator

RHD's Relative Brightness vs Wavelength Calc: https://tinyurl.com/RHD-brightness

High Current Pulse Diode Drivers: https://tinyurl.com/ya7whuk3

06-25-2017, 09:34 AM #84
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diachi
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alaskan Every generation so far has uncovered greater and greater understanding of what is really going on, but then the next one does it again to make their understanding obsolete, where this leap frogging it will end, could be many many generations from now, maybe never, maybe we are too limited to find the end of the rainbow.
Exactly.

"Everything revolves around the earth" - Nope.

"An atom is the smallest form of matter" - Nope.

There's many more, but those are the first that come to mind.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alaskan where this leap frogging it will end, could be many many generations from now, maybe never, maybe we are too limited to find the end of the rainbow.
There is a theory that the more we learn about the universe, the more complex it gets. Resulting in us never being able to form a complete understanding of everything.
__________________

355nm | Bruker SmartBeam | Q-Switched Nd:YAG | Awaiting Arrival
405nm | Banggood LT-850 | 50mW Metered | Review Unit | >>Review<<
445nm | Sanwu Laser Pocket Series | 400mW Metered
445nm | NDB7242E Pen Build | 60mW Metered | >>Build Thread<<
450nm | LaserPointerStore - Thor H2 | 1.6W Metered | Review Unit | >>Review<<
473nm | B&W Tek BWB-10-OEM |
488nm | Spectra Physics 163 Argon | ~30mW Metered |
495nm | Laser66 Pen Build | WIP
515nm | PL515 Pen Build | 50mW | >>Build Thread<<
520nm | Laserlands 520 5mW | 3mW Metered | Review Unit | >>Review<<
532nm | Gearbest 303 Pointer | 50mW Metered
532nm | Gearbest JD-850 Pointer | 30mW Metered |
633nm | HeNe | 6mW
633nm | Spectra Physics 155 HeNe | <1mW >>Thread<<
650nm | Sanwu Laser Pocket Series | 200mW Metered
808nm | Melles Griot 532nm Lab Unit | No Crystals >10W

B&W Tek Spectrometer
LaserBee 2.5W USB LPM

06-25-2017, 08:04 PM #85
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paul1598419
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Quote:
 Originally Posted by diachi It'd actually be relatively simple to calculate if it is indeed possible or not. As long as you know the output power of your transmitting laser and can calculate the signal attenuation from here to the Moon and back with a given aperture size/sensor efficiency. From there you can calculate the power received by the much smaller aperture of a human eye and figure out if it'd be visible or not. Keep in mind, the story on the FAQ is not from Steve Roberts (AKA "mixedgas" or "LSRFAQ"). It's from a different Steve.
I believe this whole controversy can be put to rest by going to Hakzaw1's post #58 and clicking on the link he has provided there. Look for post #5 by Zom-B and read the whole excerpt from Sam's Laser FAQs. Especially look at the last of excerpt by Sam Goldwasser and his take on this whole subject of seeing lasers with telescopes from earth that have been aimed at these reflectors. THAT is priceless.
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405nm C11 700mW
405nm Laser Shack Pointer 80mW
Thor H Dual Power 445nm, 438 mW & 1648 mW
445nm 3 watts MS-SSW-II
445nm 2.2 watts Nichia MS Envy

473nm 50 mW BWB-10-OEM DPSS
477nm 127 mW 501B
488nm Uniphase #2201-20SLAT argon laser head and power supply >40mW
493nm 120 mW 501B
520nm LaserLands pointer Measures 510nm
532nm LSR532H-1W Laser, LSR-PS-N1 Driver, RS-75-5 P.S. 1300 mW
532nm 200mW Thermostatically Controlled Fan Cooled (Besram) >230mW
532nm 189mW pocket lab laser
532nm lasers X6 100mW-200mW
532nm lasers X4 75mW- 140mW
632.8nm P210 New Laser Tube 0.57mW Melles Griot 05-LMP-827-037 PS
632.8nm Spectra- Physics He- Ne #102-2 4mW heads X2 and #236 power supply
632.8nm PMS He-Ne # 201P/ LPS-115 2mW
632.8nm Siemens HeNe LGK7630S 7.6mW
638nm 1 watt Cyprus II
635nm 5mW pointer
635nm 100mW pointer
650nm 65mW pointer
650nm 380mW 501B
808nm 1+W infrared laser
Ocean Optics USB2000 Spectrometer
B&W TEK BTC100 Spectrometers X3
Scientech Vector S310 with AC2500 10 Watt LPM/ Hyperion 6 Watt & 20 Watt LPM/ Radiant X4 3.7 Watt LPM

06-26-2017, 12:58 AM #86
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Quote:
 Originally Posted by diachi There is a theory that the more we learn about the universe, the more complex it gets. Resulting in us never being able to form a complete understanding of everything.
I think Feynman among others adhered to this 'onion theory' of things - you understand one layer, but that just presents the one below that needs to be understood.

Looking at dissecting atoms this is pretty clear. Discovering that the electrons come off under some circumstances did not take long. Figuring that the nucleus was not a single particle didn't take that long either, and now we are at the point of figuring out if the quarks that make up protons and neutrons are fundamental or not.

I'm not sure how far this can continue, nor about at what point we can say with certainty to have figured it all out.

Also we have some major things to figure out, mainly how gravity actually works. For electromagnetic, weak and strong forces we know the mediating (virtual) particles, but for gravity we still do not. Surely it has been named 'graviton', but it has never been observed to this day.

Surely we understand what gravity does, like keeping is on the ground or the moon in orbit, but we don't have much of an any on -how- that happens, while we do with all other interactions.

06-26-2017, 02:27 AM #87
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Of all the things we understand in physics, gravity is the least understood of them all. Even when Newton was applying his laws of motion and gravity, he threw up his hands at the way he saw gravity pulling thing toward each other. It was counter intuitive to everything else he saw in nature as things push other things, such as each action has an equal but opposite reaction. Einstein was able to make things clearer with his law of special relativity and relativity and the photo electric effect. But, to this day, we still have no idea what gravity is or how it works.
__________________
405nm Laser Pointer 45mW
405nm C11 700mW
405nm Laser Shack Pointer 80mW
Thor H Dual Power 445nm, 438 mW & 1648 mW
445nm 3 watts MS-SSW-II
445nm 2.2 watts Nichia MS Envy

473nm 50 mW BWB-10-OEM DPSS
477nm 127 mW 501B
488nm Uniphase #2201-20SLAT argon laser head and power supply >40mW
493nm 120 mW 501B
520nm LaserLands pointer Measures 510nm
532nm LSR532H-1W Laser, LSR-PS-N1 Driver, RS-75-5 P.S. 1300 mW
532nm 200mW Thermostatically Controlled Fan Cooled (Besram) >230mW
532nm 189mW pocket lab laser
532nm lasers X6 100mW-200mW
532nm lasers X4 75mW- 140mW
632.8nm P210 New Laser Tube 0.57mW Melles Griot 05-LMP-827-037 PS
632.8nm Spectra- Physics He- Ne #102-2 4mW heads X2 and #236 power supply
632.8nm PMS He-Ne # 201P/ LPS-115 2mW
632.8nm Siemens HeNe LGK7630S 7.6mW
638nm 1 watt Cyprus II
635nm 5mW pointer
635nm 100mW pointer
650nm 65mW pointer
650nm 380mW 501B
808nm 1+W infrared laser
Ocean Optics USB2000 Spectrometer
B&W TEK BTC100 Spectrometers X3
Scientech Vector S310 with AC2500 10 Watt LPM/ Hyperion 6 Watt & 20 Watt LPM/ Radiant X4 3.7 Watt LPM

06-26-2017, 05:39 AM #88
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

I would like to premise the following response with an apology to @Accutronitis, for my contribution to the continued tangential derailment of your Lunar Retroreflector, thread.
I'm still observing the behavioral patterns and norms, at play on this forum. And at present lack sufficient experiential observations to differentiate abnormalities.

To continue:
For those interested in Gravitational Physics, I have become quite enamored with Orlov's 'Foundation of Vortex Gravitation, Cosmology and Cosmogony' hypothesis.
Of special interest to me, is Section 3, starting on page #5 of the pdf.
The introduction set the hook, but Section 3 reeled me in.
Elegant observations, that lend themselves to be easily grasped and understood by casual laymen, and academics alike.

Here is the International Journal Of Sciences and Technology, link for those interested;

http://www.journalofsciences-technol...3813189874.pdf

06-26-2017, 03:48 PM #89
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Quote:
 Originally Posted by diachi ... There is a theory that the more we learn about the universe, the more complex it gets. Resulting in us never being able to form a complete understanding of everything.
Interesting. Do you have any source for that?

I had that crazy idea independently long time ago, but now I take it in some very reduced form now (more in terms of technology and our knowledge than Universe's essence). Still if that is the truth than there is no doubt the Universe is living organism playing a game with us and keeping us entertained. Still interesting is that Universe is basically exploring itself through us and considering tricky reality it makes me curious if there is something on this theory (or more accurately hypothesis?).

I really need to finish my philosophy article and publish it as I see such a discussions here. More explanation of the Surreal world and constructive critics is needed.
__________________
"Lasers are s3xy."
"That feeling when you see colours as their wavelengths."
"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."
"If you do not feel and experience the magic, you cannot become the master of wizardry."

Current collection:
405 nm | 500 mW | Wicked Lasers Lunar
445 nm | 3.5 W | Wicked Lasers Arctic
473 nm | 100 mW | Jet Lasers PL-E Pro
520 nm | 1 W | Wicked Lasers Krypton
532 nm | 100 mW | Wicked Lasers Evo
532 nm | 800 mW | Sky Lasers PL

532 nm | 1.4+ W | Optotronics RPL-II
589 nm | 50 mW | Dragon Lasers Spartan
635 nm | 750 mW | Wicked Lasers Inferno
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Wishlisted:
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Last edited by Radim; 06-26-2017 at 03:48 PM.

06-26-2017, 05:23 PM #90
 Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Qatar, land of the hot footed. Posts: 9,638 Rep Power: 1976820
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Got to be right, look at our professions, getting more and more specialized.
__________________

Attention new brothers of the collimated light!

Newbie advice: Please take the time to first make an introduction in the Welcome section before posting questions: - https://laserpointerforums.com/f37

Divergence to spot size calc: - 1 mRad is about .057 degrees which expands to be very roughly ~10% the diameter of the moon or sun at their distances.

Divergence Calculator: pseudonomen137's JScript mRad Calculator - Measure your lasers beam dia. at 1 foot & then 20'.

Online calc. to determine spot intensity at different mRad's & powers: http://tinyurl.com/divergence-calculator

Laser Power Density Calculator: Laser Power Density Calculator - Ophir

Build a beam expander to reduce divergence: http://tinyurl.com/BeamExpander

University YAG Project The Professor's Homebuilt Lasers Site - YAG Lasers

YAG Power Calc. Laser Peak Power Calculator - Ophir

Angular Size Calculator; use with diode angle of radiation spec. for lens dia. at FL: Angular Size Calculator

RHD's Relative Brightness vs Wavelength Calc: https://tinyurl.com/RHD-brightness

High Current Pulse Diode Drivers: https://tinyurl.com/ya7whuk3

06-26-2017, 06:03 PM #91
 Class 3R Laser Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: European Union Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 908617
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

True. Complexity is increasing, and the only way how to get everything, is to study the complexity itself and specialize on it. With this you have approach to any direction of science. Take stuff from it and build your image of the world. Unavoidable consequence of studying complexity is, you will go deeply specialized in at least several subjects to combine them in new direction.
__________________
"Lasers are s3xy."
"That feeling when you see colours as their wavelengths."
"Laserpainting is a drug. Do not try it."
"If you do not feel and experience the magic, you cannot become the master of wizardry."

Current collection:
405 nm | 500 mW | Wicked Lasers Lunar
445 nm | 3.5 W | Wicked Lasers Arctic
473 nm | 100 mW | Jet Lasers PL-E Pro
520 nm | 1 W | Wicked Lasers Krypton
532 nm | 100 mW | Wicked Lasers Evo
532 nm | 800 mW | Sky Lasers PL

532 nm | 1.4+ W | Optotronics RPL-II
589 nm | 50 mW | Dragon Lasers Spartan
635 nm | 750 mW | Wicked Lasers Inferno
1 W RGB projector
(+ some pointers)

Wishlisted:
Sanwu's RGB Portable

Laserpainting art:
Latest artwork: The Pandora's Black Box

The Hologram Question has just been answered! (wazup post)

LPF social media hashtag: #laserpointerforums

Last edited by Radim; 06-26-2017 at 06:04 PM.

06-27-2017, 02:23 AM #92
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

I guess we want to understand the thibgs we observe, and often do a good job at that.

We fundamentally understand how electrcical charges attract or repel anohter, even how atomic nucleii interact and all that. Yet we still do not know the fundamentals of how the earth stays in orbit around the sun, or what caused the apple to fall on newtons head.

Obviously we know what gravity does, but oddly we still have little idea on how it works. I find that a bit ironic since we've known about gravity long before we had any notion of things like electricty, magnetsm or such: tenthousand years ago men fell on their behinds after a wrong move, blissfully ignorant of why.

They discovered things like control of fire, electricty, nuclear fission and fusion since, but still have a very limited understanding of falling on their behinds under certain conditions

06-27-2017, 07:11 PM #93
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Accutronitis Dust On the Moon....
@Accutronitis, thanks for posting this clip. That was very informative and added to the thread not only as concerns the Lunar, conditions. But also included a brief overview that similar hostile conditions are present on the Martian, surface as well. You began this thread by drawing attention to the retrorelfectors, that were left on the Lunar surface during the Apollo, missions. This remains as you indicated, an interesting Laser related topic. However, like with most thought provoking subjects, the conversation soon diverged into other related areas such as the current, effusively charming cosmological spitballing. That should actually be viewed, as having achieved a certain level of validation for your original premise. But I digress.

To tiller the conversation back to the Lunar, questions- after exploring what the current status of the 'reflectors' may be due to the accumulation of Lunar dust on the surfaces, this also brings up another interesting aspect of some additional measuring equipment that was installed alongside the reflectors. That equipment consisting of Seismometers, which revealed other interesting aspects of the Lunar body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Moon

Now while this too lends itself as fertile fodder for other charming cosmological fantasies, it also provides another perspective that serves to reinforce the awe and wonder of creation. In that the Earth and Moon, relationship involves so many sublime nuances that, to coin a phrase from another recent post- layers of onion skins, really only tends to serve as a basic analogy for the current state of observational cosmological knowledge.

Also, I would like to suggest that your thread demonstrated some of the vital roles that Lasers have played.
And how they continue to provide support for Mankind's efforts towards exploring, and understand the universe that we live in.

06-28-2017, 12:25 AM #94
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Benm
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Well yeah, no hollow moon for me.

Earths moon Luna is actually quite large. In fact, it is so large that it would be considered to be a planet if it did not orbit earth. If earth was to somehow just disappear, luna would be the 3rd planet from the sun being not -that- much smaller than mercury.

As far as being dusty: both luna and mars probably are, very much so.

Even earth is pretty dusty in some areas, mostly those that see little to no rainfall, and if you travel there the find sand also gets into everything and is a major nuisance. Even with our gravity and dense atmosphere the stuff gets in everywhere and causes problems for equipment.

On the plus size we have explored the moon in person and mars by rovers so we know what to expect.

Back in the days leading up to the lunar missions there were serious concerns that the layer of dust on the moon would be so thick things like landers wound sink into it so deeply no exploration was possbile. We now know that the dust layer on either is not so thick a person or rover would simply fall through it never to be heard of again. We have not explored all of the surface though, and their could be parts that have 'quicksand' deep enough to get lost in... the quicksand being a mixture of dust and air anything dense would easily fall through.

06-28-2017, 01:51 AM #95
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paul1598419
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Benm We have not explored all of the surface though, and their could be parts that have 'quicksand' deep enough to get lost in... the quicksand being a mixture of dust and air anything dense would easily fall through.
Where is this "air" mixed with dust on the moon coming from? Last I heard there is NO atmosphere on the moon. Sounds great in theory, but without any air, highly improbable.
__________________
405nm Laser Pointer 45mW
405nm C11 700mW
405nm Laser Shack Pointer 80mW
Thor H Dual Power 445nm, 438 mW & 1648 mW
445nm 3 watts MS-SSW-II
445nm 2.2 watts Nichia MS Envy

473nm 50 mW BWB-10-OEM DPSS
477nm 127 mW 501B
488nm Uniphase #2201-20SLAT argon laser head and power supply >40mW
493nm 120 mW 501B
520nm LaserLands pointer Measures 510nm
532nm LSR532H-1W Laser, LSR-PS-N1 Driver, RS-75-5 P.S. 1300 mW
532nm 200mW Thermostatically Controlled Fan Cooled (Besram) >230mW
532nm 189mW pocket lab laser
532nm lasers X6 100mW-200mW
532nm lasers X4 75mW- 140mW
632.8nm P210 New Laser Tube 0.57mW Melles Griot 05-LMP-827-037 PS
632.8nm Spectra- Physics He- Ne #102-2 4mW heads X2 and #236 power supply
632.8nm PMS He-Ne # 201P/ LPS-115 2mW
632.8nm Siemens HeNe LGK7630S 7.6mW
638nm 1 watt Cyprus II
635nm 5mW pointer
635nm 100mW pointer
650nm 65mW pointer
650nm 380mW 501B
808nm 1+W infrared laser
Ocean Optics USB2000 Spectrometer
B&W TEK BTC100 Spectrometers X3
Scientech Vector S310 with AC2500 10 Watt LPM/ Hyperion 6 Watt & 20 Watt LPM/ Radiant X4 3.7 Watt LPM

06-29-2017, 12:44 AM #96
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Re: Lasers prove we've been to the moon !

I should have worded that better indeed. Obviously it's not air in the sense of the stuff we breathe.

It's more of a very loosely stacked pocket of dust where the particles lean on eachother, with pretty much a vacuum between them. Such things need not collapse right away, but as soon as you set foot on them you'd sink in.

Let's say you got the dustbag out of your vacuum cleaner, not filled to the point where it stops working well, but where it's sort of "full of dust", and pile the contents of that onto a pile. You could put that in a vacuum chamber and then proceed to reduce pressure carefully to near zero.

The pile would not reduce to a 'pancake' under gravity, but most likely stay more or less the same since it an open structure all elements of which are much denser than hair anyway. If you were to step on such a pile it'd collapse under you immediately though.

Similarly you could shovel out a pit, fill it with something fluffy like cotton balls, put some leaves over it, and have a pretty good trap right here on earth: With the minimum load of the leaves it will keep its form, but as soon as you set foot in on it, down the hole you go.

Air is not really required for this at all, i just mistakenly mentioned it because that is what fills the gaps in such contraptions on earth

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