Arrests?

danefex said:

... We all seem to be on the verge of becoming criminals these days, so the safest and most considerate, ...

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Well, *I* say that if we ARE going to become criminals, then a "verge" is an uncomfortable place to be.

We may as well go full bore, all out, damn the torpedoes, and do a "Thunderbolt & Lightfoot" routine.

LET'S ALL BURN OUR WAY INTO BANK VAULTS, and ROB 'EM (at say 4 in the morning)!

:gun:

(umm, joking... or am I?)

ElektroFreak said:

A hobbyist can do anything they want with their laser as long as the beam is confined to their property. As soon as it's off your property it's public. A person out showing off their laser device does, in fact, constitute a public laser display, which is governed directly by the CDRH. To the gov't, in terms of legal variance requirement, there's no difference between a guy with a high-powered laser pointer on a public street corner or at a concert, and the laserist at your local planetarium except that the planetarium will most likely have a variance while the pointer wielder will not. There is no direct requirement that I'm aware of that states that money must change hands. A free laser show producing power over 5mW STILL requires a variance to occur in public unless it's at a school or 100% private event. The equipment involved doesn't matter, whether it's a projector or handheld laser. Even on your own property, as soon as the beam leaves the boundaries of your land or enters navigable airspace it's under CDRH and/or FAA jurisdiction.

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ElektroFreak said:

especially high-powered handheld lasers.. pointing at something would be considered "demonstration" too.. I will say that there is too much room for interpretation in the CDRH legalese IMO. I've always thought it should be spelled out with a lot more clarity.

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You still aren't reading the document correctly. The documents from their inception have focused upon commercial ventures. Do you understand the excerpt of 21CFR Sec. 1040.10 Laser products provided by Garog. It was recently added to clear up this type of confusion you are creating.

ElektroFreak said:

There's very little enforcement, so it's not very often that people run into trouble with their laser pointer, but the legality depends on the power of the laser and whether or not a variance exists that allows it's use in public.

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Would it be practical to require everyone everytime they wanted to shoot a laser beam off their property to file for a variance ? Output makes no difference either because the CDRH nor the federal government in general has any law prohibiting power output.

Tech_Junkie said:

Lets face it, high powered lasers are designed for entertainment. There is very little other uses for them.

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Partially right. They are designed for personal entertainment. I assume you've read Garogs post included here and have completely understood it ?


This isn't the first time I've had this argument. Years ago I had this argument with someone that was a laserist. Someone that should now the law better.

It serves no one to keep the rumor mill going with half truths on this topic. It only serves to create a bit of fear which makes this hobby a little less fun.

Garoq said:

21CFR Sec. 1040.10 Laser products.

"(13)Demonstration laser product means any laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition. The term "demonstration laser product" does not apply to laser products which are not manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for such purposes, even though they may be used for those purposes or are intended to demonstrate other applications."

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Thanks Garog for posting this.

Tech_Junkie said:

Lets face it, high powered lasers are designed for entertainment. There is very little other uses for them.

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Most of high power lasers are designed for industry/military - burn baby burn :na:

Yeah.. so this is why I don't post here anymore. I think that trend will continue.

You've got loud morons like this guy here telling a person who does professional laser shows for a living (which require our company to deal directly with the CDRH) that they have no clue about the legality of lasers, including handhelds. I've asked my local office about this very thing.. I'm only repeating what they told me. But sure, Steve001 knows better then the CDRH itself does right?

I'll tell y'all what. You just let Steve001 here keep posting completely false legal info on your forum like it's fact, and I'll continue on my merry way.. It's no longer my job to help better LPF, especially when there are idiots like this guy being allowed to post this kind of crap. Are there ANY laser-related forums that aren't complete jokes anymore?

Laters.

Not trying to be argumentative, but for example if you had asked any regional or DC ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives) representative less than three years ago if Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant (APCP) was an explosive, they would have said "Absolutely, you need to obtain an explosives manufacturing license, a storage magazine and keep records of all your transactions."

Court Order re: TRA/NAR vs. ATFE 3-16-09

The sad part was that, at least initially, many people in the rocket industry supported the ATF's view.

Comment from another relative newbie to the hobby:

It does look like there is a lot of ambiguity on the subject.

The big question to me is with regards to enforcement concerning laser enthusiasts.

In all articles that I've been able to find, the people actually getting arrested or fined are idiots who are in fact shining lasers at cars, airplanes, helicopters, etc,. The arrests or fines are based either on FAA or local municipality laws.

Also intent is an important component of the law. All the documents cited so far do not seem to address the issue of intent(Do they?). Another words whether shining the laser at an airplane was accidental or on purpose.

@Garoq: I never said you guys can't argue this stuff with the gov't if you want. Go for it!!

@Infinitus: I've said this already, but the reason you only hear about about the people who shine their lasers at other people and vehicles/aircraft being arrested is because those are the only laser-related activities that are criminal. CDRH reg violations are civil, so no one gets arrested. There can be hefty fines though..

Challenging gov't regs can be a great way to see change, and I'm not trying to discourage people from confronting what they might feel is some sort of injustice, but our company unfortunately doesn't have time for that.. that's why we just do our best to comply with what the CDRH requires of us. Basically, what they say is the way it is as far as I'm concerned. As I said, I've talked with an employee of the CDRH about handheld lasers awhile back, mostly out of curiosity since many people are very confused and it can be hard to find straight answers on the web.. What I've written in this thread is based on that conversation. Compared to that conversation with the CDRH directly, what some folks say on a forum someplace is entirely irrelevant.

The amount of crap on this forum that is just complete bullshit has always been staggering, and I see that there are still plenty of "one time I argued this with a laserist" bona fide "experts" pumping their mental fecal matter into it even still. So very unfortunate, but unavoidable I think. A long time ago I got tired of that, but I guess I forgot about it and came back.. A mistake I think. We'll see.

steve001 said:

Would it be practical to require everyone everytime they wanted to shoot a laser beam off their property to file for a variance ?

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Bottom line: you're not supposed to "shoot beams off your property."


Would it be reasonable to go leave a bunch of floating debris in navigable waters without telling anyone? No.

Would it be reasonable to go place a traffic cone in the road randomly? No.

A beam shone into the night sky is a navigational hazard for pilots, and the FAA must be alerted, whether your beams come from a lasershow or your ridiculous 1W+ "pointer."

@EF: Somehow the system derped and you got two rep comments from me.

-Trevor

ElektroFreak said:

@Infinitus: I've said this already, but the reason you only hear about about the people who shine their lasers at other people and vehicles/aircraft being arrested is because those are the only laser-related activities that are criminal. CDRH reg violations are civil, so no one gets arrested. There can be hefty fines though..

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So here's the big question, since for 99.99% of actual laser enthusiasts criminal violations aren't likely to be an issue.

How are the CDRH regulations enforced?

Does a representative of CDRH have to witness the violation, or does the local/state pd have the authority to act on their behalf?

ElektroFreak said:

The amount of crap on this forum that is just complete bullshit has always been staggering, and I see that there are still plenty of "one time I argued this with a laserist" bona fide "experts" pumping their mental fecal matter into it even still. So very unfortunate, but unavoidable I think. A long time ago I got tired of that, but I guess I forgot about it and came back.. A mistake I think. We'll see.

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Many people have a hard time admitting that they are wrong, unfortunately it's a fact of life:undecided:

I read and trusted an old thread, which led me to make some faulty assumptions... and I'm sure you know the old saying about making assumptions.

Anyway, hope you stick around. It's nice to have another level headed well informed voice on the forum:beer:

Thanks for the votes of confidence guys.. as you can tell I'm not always level-headed. I get frustrated over bad information.

CDRH regs are enforced by local field office personnel in most cases. There really isn't much enforcement, so generally speaking you *can* do just about anything with your high-powered laser as long as you are sensible (ie avoiding illuminating people, vehicles, or aircraft). In the US there are regulations in place that make much of what people do with high-powered handheld lasers "technically illegal", but without any real enforcement it's only a technicality. Personally I don't care what people do as long as they are sensible, but if we're talking about legality then the technicalities are what count.

lazeristasUVISIR said:

Most of high power lasers are designed for industry/military - burn baby burn :na:

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We are talking about hand helds.

lasersbee said:

Do you have a mobile Aircraft Tracking Radar or a direct link to the
local Airport Control Tower... or perhaps just supernatural vision....:thinking:

Can you be absolutely 100% sure there are no aircraft in the vicinity...:thinking:

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The only aircraft you shouldn't be to see are the ones that don't exist and the ones that don't have their nav lights turned on, accidently or on purpose. The only ones that should have their nav lights turned off on purpose would be military aircraft. You can see the nav lights on aircraft even if they are 20k plus feet in altitude.

You should still be as careful as possible though, indoors and out.

This maybe It's a bit off topic, but it is interesting.

Here is a "diagram" (In English I do not know how to say) of the scope of a green laser from many powers, and its danger by the distance.

I can not say if it is completely correct, but gives a slight idea how dangerous it can be a laser, to at least.

Dr_Evil said:

The only aircraft you shouldn't be to see are the ones that don't exist and the ones that don't have their nav lights turned on, accidently or on purpose. The only ones that should have their nav lights turned off on purpose would be military aircraft. You can see the nav lights on aircraft even if they are 20k plus feet in altitude.

You should still be as careful as possible though, indoors and out.

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That depends on where you are shinning the lasers. If the area is surrounded by trees, and other obstacles, its not always easy to see aircraft. But you can be sure they will see you.

Tech_Junkie said:

We are talking about hand helds.

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Probably you heard about dazers - high power hand held lasers to daze people.
Some uses a high power green laser for astronomy - an educational purpose. :can:

piferal said:

This maybe It's a bit off topic, but it is interesting.

Here is a "diagram" (In English I do not know how to say) of the scope of a green laser from many powers, and its danger by the distance.

I can not say if it is completely correct, but gives a slight idea how dangerous it can be a laser, to at least.

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It should be normed to a certain beam size and divergence.