Arrests?

Tech_Junkie said:

Its illegal to shine anything over 5mW outside, period. The only reason why we can own high powered lasers is that they are suppose to be used in a lab situation only. One can say a room in their house is a lab, so there is a small loop hole there.

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This is 100% correct. Technically it is illegal in the US to use any laser over 4.99mW in public. This includes anywhere outside of your own private, enclosed property. If the beam leaves your property (which it will if you shine it in the sky) then technically you're breaking the law on 2 fronts: You are using a laser over 4.99mW for display in public AND you are violating FAA regulations by allowing a high-powered laser beam to enter navigable airspace. It's highly uncommon for someone to get in trouble for shining a laser in the sky while on their own property UNLESS an aircraft is involved, but it's still technically illegal.

Simply put, 99.9% of the time you can do whatever you want on your own property with any laser of any power. If you shine at people or vehicles (obviously including aircraft) you can get into serious trouble even if the beam originates from your own property.

Didn't mean to start a flame war...

Hard facts about the law are good, but honestly it doesn't sound like _anybody_ fully understands how the law works with these things. I mean, I was originally under the impression that HANDHELD lasers had to have all sorts of crazy safeties, period. (Regardless of where you're shining it).

But my original question more along the lines of what people had experienced. Has anybody had a cop show up at their door and ask why a huge beam of blue light is coming out of their back yard?

"I was bat hunting" :crackup:

@steve001 - Is the information in this thread still correct?

http://laserpointerforums.com/f53/california-laser-owners-52230.html

That's actually the thread that left the me with the impression of what I stated above.

Edit: Did a little googling, don't know how good this information is... I am at work so time is somewhat limited...

http://www.laserpointersafety.com/rules-general/rules/rules.html

CDRH says these "SLA" lasers tend to be portable, are generally handheld, emit into open space, and have a straight beam. The intent is to classify any handheld laser emitting a straight beam into open space as an SLA laser.

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Now most hobby lasers do not produce a perfectly aligned beam from the aperture...

goosesensor said:

Hard facts about the law are good, but honestly it doesn't sound like _anybody_ fully understands how the law works with these things. I mean, I was originally under the impression that HANDHELD lasers had to have all sorts of crazy safeties, period. (Regardless of where you're shining it).

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A couple people who understand the law have answered you here. Apparently you didn't like what they had to say.

You can always do the research yourself. Here's a link to 21 CFR 1040 itself, verbatim: CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21

Here's the FAA regs concerning outdoor use of lasers: LASER FAQ and Contact Information (your handheld laser shining around the sky constitutes an outdoor display)

Read and learn..

Handheld laser DO have to have all kinds of safeties IF they are to be imported and/or sold in the US LEGALLY. 99% of the high-powered imported or domestically built handhelds you see for sale are illegally sold/distributed. Even the ones you see for sale here.. but we generally avoid making a big deal out of that .

Also, as I said in my last post, it's not common for people to be harassed as long as they avoid aircraft and police and stay on their own property.

@ElektroFreak

Thank you for the links. Will read up at earliest opportunity.

Doesn't look good though:

An outdoor laser light show/demonstration is considered to be a laser product by the Food and Drug Administration’s Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) and, if the irradiance is greater than 5 miliwatts per square centimeter, the demonstration requires a variance to Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 1040.11c.

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I was under the mistaken assumption that there had to be a commercial/for profit element when it comes to laser shows:banghead:

That's a common assumption, but actually there is no solid requirement that money change hands.

The only way to legally do public shows without needing a variance is to do it indoors at a school, or indoors with a private and restricted group of individuals who have been made aware of the potential hazards that lasers pose. (Halls of education are exempt from the normal rules to allow for laser-related education, but one can also exploit this loophole to do shows for school dances etc.)

Also some information easy to understand:


Important Information for Laser Pointer Manufacturers

Tech_Junkie said:

You have to do your own homework my friend.

Why do you think PP stopped all payments for lasers over 5mW, but you can import lab lasers? Also why eBay wont let you sell over 5mW lasers, but you can buy a 300mW lab laser?

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With ebay it is said (by them) that any 'portable' laser over 5mW
is not allowed to be sold on their site. I have had even labby's
taken down because the power source could be a cigarette lighter
@ 12v in a car.. The rules they put in place can be spun in many
directions if they want to pull and auction.

It usually comes down to somebody reporting the auction.. I have had
auctions for bare diodes get pulled which you have to contact their
'safety' people to straighten out. Some are just idiots who pull auctions
without even viewing the listing.

The problem with the rules they have in place is that there are many sellers
who list lasers that are over 5mW as <5mW or dont mention the power
at all to get around the rules.. Problem there is that people think they
are buying something safe when that is not the case.

There was an article I read sometime back that had a seller on ebay
listing 50mW 532's as 'party toy' etc and people were buying for their
kids etc. The FDA caught up to this and made an example out of the
seller. Cant find the article and have searched for it a few times to
post it here..

steve001 said:

You live in California. Oh man, that's just to bad for you. Well here are the dirty details. Are you ready ?

Here's the low down. There is no federal law prohibiting a hobbyist from shining a laser into the sky. Neither are there any state or local jurisdiction laws preventing the same. The airspace above your head is under the control of the federal government that's why. The only way you would be put in jail and fined would be if you intentionally interfere with the safe operation of an aircraft; even if that aircraft is on the ground.

Everything I've just said is freely available for you to read at the appropriate websites. I suggest you do so so you don't spread misinformation like Tech_junkie. Tech_junkie is poorly informed - period.

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Looks like you're the miss-informed one here, period.

Does FDA have a mandatory limit on the power emitted by laser pointers?

Yes. Laser products promoted for pointing and demonstration purposes are limited to hazard Class IIIa by FDA regulation.
21 CFR 1040.11(b) and 1040.11(c), limit surveying, leveling, and alignment, and demonstration laser products to Class IIIa. This means that pointers are limited to 5 milliwatts output power in the visible wavelength range from 400 to 710 nanometers. There are also limits for any invisible wavelengths and for short pulses. Pointers may not exceed the accessible emission limits of CDRH Class IIIa or IEC1 Class 3R.

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Tech_Junkie said:

Looks like you're the miss-informed one here, period.

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I think there might be a little misunderstanding here.. the post you quoted, TJ, was referring to lasers in airspace, but the quote you posted as rebuttal was about maximum power from a laser pointer.

Steve001 is partially incorrect however, and TJ is partially right in responding with power output regs. There is no federal law that says a person cannot shine a laser with a power LESS than 5mW into the air, but the same law that says you cannot use a laser OVER 5mW in public also covers using a laser over 5mW to point in the air.

So can you legally shine a high powered laser into the sky or not?

I'm confused.

yeah.. I know that sounds confusing, I probably could have worded it better.. I guess maybe I'm taking things too literally because Steve001's post makes no mention of the laser's power, and your post makes no mention of the laser shining into the air. That was what prompted my last post.. you were both still partially right.

In the US, legally you can only shine lasers less than 5mW into the air, and only when there is no possibility of hitting an aircraft. I am not aware of any federal law that says otherwise.

I know I didnt say that exactly, but I was answering the OP question.

Maybe I should have been clearer too.

..just my .02 folks.

I recently had 2 cops banging on my front door late one evening after they'd witnessed my shining a few bright blue lasers into the sky. (I live across the street from the village/police station in my area)

Long story short, they took my laser away & went to file a report which could've included my prosecution. 25 mins later following their visit, the primary officer gave me my laser back and left me with this verbal statement:

'You're not going to have your laser confiscated nor are you going to be arrested for this because frankly there's no law against what you were doing. We discussed that it is illegal to point a laser at any transportation, people or in an destructive and/or distracting manner to the public, luckily in your case this is not the problem...we just saw your bright lasers shooting into the sky. HOWEVER, if I ever see you shining a laser near me again (I was taking low light pics & distracted him while gunning speeders from a nearby parking lot) - you're going to jail!"

Since my incident and that explanation, I tried 'registering' myself with the village I live in because I have over a dozen high powered, dangerous lasers & I'm located across the street from the police department.. I met with a sergeant & gave him my story. I was told I was doing nothing wrong without crossing the lines of 'use' and destructive/distracting/harassing 'misuse' which would lead to my arrest, fine, ect.

They have my name and my information regarding the incident and my hobby. I was told by this sergeant who's name I have on file after several questions regarding my wellbeing for law abiding use - that if I were ever harassed by any of his officers for non-misuse of my lasers (my word against theirs pertaining to whatever happens) - to contact him regarding the matter.

To date, I've used my lasers very cautiously outdoors & without public distraction as per the police/public villages' perspective - and have had no problems from the police since then.

My point..? Be very careful what you're dealing with no matter how safe you are, or more importantly where you are. In my case, I was lucky - but I'm not gambling on it saving me everytime :beer:

lasersbee said:

Can you be absolutely 100% sure there are no aircraft in the vicinity...:thinking:

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I'm not sure about US legislation, but here in holland its only forbidden to endanger an aircraft, and the danger needs to be proven. If you accidentally shine onto the bottom of an airliner flying over at cruise altitude there obviously is no danger of any kind.

Incidents with aircraft usually take place at take off or landing, or with helicopters in flight that should be clearly visible and audible. If you are anywhere near an airport it would make sense to point the laser nearly straight up, but not at a low angle towards the horizon since planes could be there in such a position you might shine into the flightdeck.

Regardless of who is right or who is wrong concerning the details, thanks to all the contributers for this thread. It's especially valuable for "newbies" like me, and might keep us out of trouble (better yet, it helps promote a mindset that might possibly prevent tragic circumstances).

Especially @ danefex; that anecdote / personal experience really puts things in perspective.

* I live relatively close to Dyess Air Force Base, and I'd better watch my step.