Questions about DragonLasers

Since the release of the Hulk Ultra series at Dragonlasers.com, I've been trying to do some research into them.  They seem like a pretty good deal, and I've been around here long enough to know that some people don't think too hightly of Dragonlasers, but I also know some respected members here have found them to be a good company.  Either way, the Hulk Ultra seems like a good deal, especially since it comes with a pair of lasershades, battery, and charger.

I went to dragonlasers.com and spoke with the online support guy at length about this laser.  He was very friendly and helpful throughout the whole conversation.  Once of my questions could not be answered, however, when I asked him about the size of the IR Pump Diode in these units.  This was the e-mail response I received from DragonLasers about it :
_____________________________________________________

Dear Michael,

We do not provide technical information to our customers.

Regards

Sales Department
www.dragonlasers.com
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Morrow [mailto:morrom@rpi.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 6:28 AM
To: dragonlasers
Subject: Hulk Ultra

Just curious, what size is the IR pump diode in the Hulk Ultra?

____________________________________________________________





That was the official e-mail I recieved after filling out the question form.  The support guy, Frank, also told me he would try to ask around and see if he could find an anser for me.  This is the e-mail he sent me :



_______________________________________________________

Hi Dough,

Just asked my departments in house technician about the diode size and they are not sure. Apparently the diode sizes given by a lot of manufacturers and retailers are deceptive.

I'll look into it further for you but not sure when i can get back to you with an exact answer.

Cheers
Frank
Dragonlasers
________________________________________________________________




I would really like them to be straightforward about this stuff, because it is an important question that many potential customers would like to know.  I also spoke with him about possibly doing a review on one of these units, and we will continue to speak about this in the next couple of days, hopefully with successful results.  Our initial conversation seemed promising.


One thing that came up, and the main question for this thread is this.  Does anyone know who owns DragonLasers?  While talking to Frank in the support chat, I asked him wether or not his company manufactures their lasers, or if they are a reseller for another manufacturer.  At that point he told me he could not repond with specific names, but that DragonLasers is a partner venture with a very large laser company, and that at this time the company would like to remain known as just DragonLasers, and not be officially offiliated with the larger partner company.  I tried to do some domain searches to see what I could turn up but I couldnt figure anything out.  So does anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks guys,

-Dough

DL is a scamming reseller of CNI products, they hype up the power ratings for profit.

How do you know for a fact that they are selling CNI lasers? Regardless, I was told that the mW on the lasers is guarenteed, meaning the average over 5 min is going to be higher than the advertised price or you can send it back, shipping paid by them, to get a replacement. The Hulk Ultra also doesnt have that vagueness of the regular Hulks (200-300 mW model). Instead, they have flat mW ratings, which tells you that the Hulk Ultra 300mW will have a 5 min average greater than 300 mW. The only thing I cant seem to get a straight answer about is the size of the pump diode in these things

-Dough

Dough --

A 100 mW+ laser running on 2 aaa cells can't hold that power for 5 minutes. The laser itself may be willing but the cells are weak ;D I've never tried powering my DL 95 and 125 with a power supply to test the module over time.
I think Pseudo has done more extensive testing and has data.
For me, I impress the unenlightened within a couple seconds !!!!

Mike

Mike,

Its not powered by 2 aaa cells, its run in a similar fashion to most lasers of this type, by 1 18650 Lithium Ion Rechargeable battery. It also comes with the battery and charger.

-Dough

DoughDTD said:

How do you know for a fact that they are selling CNI lasers?  Regardless, I was told that the mW on the lasers is guarenteed, meaning the average over 5 min is going to be higher than the advertised price or you can send it back, shipping paid by them, to get a replacement.  The Hulk Ultra also doesnt have that vagueness of the regular Hulks (200-300 mW model).  Instead, they have flat mW ratings, which tells you that the Hulk Ultra 300mW will have a 5 min average greater than 300 mW.  The only thing I cant seem to get a straight answer about is the size of the pump diode in these things

-Dough

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I forgot what movie its from, but I recall the phrase "I could crap in a bag an guarantee it for you". Same deal. DLs word is next to worthless. The choice is yours, the money is yours, but I urge you to consider info in this and other posts before you spend it: http://www.laserpointerforums.com/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1189186835

Tommy Boy

"The reason why they have a guarrantee on the box is because they know all they sold you is a guarranteed piece of shit. Hell, I can take a crap in a box and slap a guarrantee on it for you, if that's what you want, I've got spare time."

Haha that is a very funny, yet good point Pseudo. I very well understand what your saying, and I've been around long enough to have read most things on alot of the companies. However, lets just be honest for a moment. For example, Nova (I'm a huge Nova fan, dont get me wrong) sells CNI lasers as well. The Nova series seems to be identidal to the Hulk Ultra, and seeing as they are both from CNI thats probably a good assumption. A DL Hulk Ultra 300 mW model WITH a pair of goggles is going for $750. Lets just say they over-labeled and underspeced the laser by 50 mW and its actually closer to a 250 mW model. Thats still $250 dollars cheaper than the same laser offered by Nova.

I'm not saying one way or another, I'm just curious about this new model and would like some more specific info, such as Pump Diode size. I also wouldnt mind seeing a review from someone who knows what theyre talking about and can verify preformance with a meter.

-Dough

DoughDTD said:

Haha that is a very funny, yet good point Pseudo.  I very well understand what your saying, and I've been around long enough to have read most things on alot of the companies.  However, lets just be honest for a moment.  For example, Nova (I'm a huge Nova fan, dont get me wrong) sells CNI lasers as well.  The Nova series seems to be identidal to the Hulk Ultra, and seeing as they are both from CNI thats probably a good assumption.  A DL Hulk Ultra 300 mW model WITH a pair of goggles is going for $750.  Lets just say they over-labeled and underspeced the laser by 50 mW and its actually closer to a 250 mW model.  Thats still $250 dollars cheaper than the same laser offered by Nova.  

-Dough

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hes got ya there lol ;D

DoughDTD said:

However, lets just be honest for a moment. For example, Nova (I'm a huge Nova fan, dont get me wrong) sells CNI lasers as well. The Nova series seems to be identidal to the Hulk Ultra, and seeing as they are both from CNI thats probably a good assumption. A DL Hulk Ultra 300 mW model WITH a pair of goggles is going for $750. Lets just say they over-labeled and underspeced the laser by 50 mW and its actually closer to a 250 mW model. Thats still $250 dollars cheaper than the same laser offered by Nova.

-Dough

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Hi Dough,
Not all lasers of a specific model & manufactured by the same company are created equal, this is something that many assume, but it's not that way at all, so in the above example for instance, maybe you get a laser that is 50mW under spec and $250 cheaper, but it may very well have a lessor diode, might not have IR filtering and who knows what else.

Manufacturers are very accommodating and want to sell as many as possible, say company DL or XX that has a relationship with a Mfg and says I want xxxmW lasers $xxx price or lower, how do we get them down to this price?

It's not a big deal at all and is quite common for manufacturers in all types of manufacturing to do custom builds for customers who place large orders and want their costs reduced. (also works the opposite direction (not as often) that they want higher performance and reliability, where they add cost to the product to improve on the design).

To reduce their cost, they start taking cost out of the laser by widening specs for this company so that the yield is higher (that's one of the ways), but they will also reduce the cost of components as much as possible. They can go to a cheaper and or less powerful IR doide, this is one of the 1st things they'll consider as it's the most expensive component. Maybe get rid of the IR filter and or anti reflective coatings on the optics.

Just because the laser mentioned above looks like a CNI and may be manufactured by CNI, does not mean it meets the requirements and quality level to be sold as a CNI. In fact CNI or the Mfg in question might not even warranty them or even repair them (another way to reduce cost even more) as all their responsibility may end as soon as they are delivered to their reseller.

The fact that they won't make any claims as to the diode being used or it's power rating, is a big giveaway, if they used a higher power/quality diode, they would make mention of it.

Jack

very good points jack, definately things worth considering. I'm sure you have alot of experience with such things being a retailer yourself, especially since you do something very similar (ask for higher spec/better quality units from manufacturer). This is something I didnt think about, however I'm still waiting from an e-mail from DL about the diode size, we'll see if they tell me. Also, I've arranged a possible review of one of these units, so once my LPM comes in I might be able to set up some tests. Who knows, maybe I can convince them to let me take it apart and test the raw IR output to determine the diode size (NOT ON MY LPM!!! haha i'll send it out to something with a capabible meter). Either way, good points, but I would still like to hear/learn more about this product.

-Dough

It's easier and less risky to test diode size using a multimeter. Just measure the total input power and account for the fact that there may be a potentiometer limiting the current draw.

DoughDTD said:

...but I also know some respected members here have found them to be a good company.

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Well, I don't know about respected, but I am a member. I purchased a 125mw Viper from Dragon. I found the company, their products, and their customer service to be great. The laser has performed almost flawlessly and I have been beating the hell out of it. Like many of us, I am comp'd for posting this sort of thing. Sure beats paying cash.

Hi,
The problem you have w/ sub-companies is that they do generally use less tolerant components. As w/ the Pioneer Electronics line, most regular branded Pioneer stuff have a tolerance of 5% for certain components, the Elite series uses 2%. If they won't tell you the Diode, then there is your example. If it were to have a Killer 2w or something, then they would deffinately want you to know that it is in there to help sell their product. Looking the same and being made by the same Manufacturer but being several hundred bucks cheaper, they are cutting corners somehwere! Any Company that is selling something that won't answer any question that is not deemd a Company Secret or something is deffinately trying to pull some wool. Though not to say it won't perform, it just probably is built with lesser components. I jumped over and looked at the DL again and looking at their rating, it states 200mw average and 300mw peak over 3 minutes. I would like to see the graph, as to get a peak of 300 and average it out to 200 over 3 minutes, then wouldn't it have to had dropped 100 at some point to come out to the 200 average? Just a thought.
Thanks. :-X

Y'all already know my opinions about DL so this repost shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Anyway, here's a post I found by the venerable Buffo over at PL:

"As fas as Dragon Lasers goes - if you remember I did a review for them earlier this year on one of their 80 mw DPSS blue lab lasers. However, after the review was completed, we discovered that the laser was actually a re-labeled CNI that was originally rated for just 20 mw! They found a particularly hot laser and re-labeled it! As it turned out, the guy that bought that laser noticed that the power output ended up dropping off to around 65 mw, where it seems to have stabalized.

Still, the fact that they're re-branding and up-selling the CNI lasers is more than a little dishonest in my book. I'd think twice before buying from them.

Adam
"

Dave --

Dragon Lasers doesn't give me diddly for comments. I have a DL95 and a DL125. Both of them exceed rated output for as long as aaa cells can support the current which isn't very long !!! Product satisfaction is based largely on the buyer's expectations.
The laser companies are in heavy competition and they are finding a new, educated class of buyer who has a power meter. I think at least 40 of us here on LPF have at least one power meter, some with two or more. Sellers are going to have to start advertising reliable, repeatable specs for their products.

Mike

Hemlock Mike said:

Dave --

Dragon Lasers doesn't give me diddly for comments.  I have a DL95 and a DL125.  Both of them exceed rated output for as long as aaa cells can support the current which isn't very long !!!  Product satisfaction is based largely on the buyer's expectations.
The laser companies are in heavy competition and they are finding a new, educated class of buyer who has a power meter.  I think at least 40 of us here on LPF have at least one power meter, some with two or more.  Sellers are going to have to start advertising reliable, repeatable specs for their products.

Mike

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Sorry to bring this up again, but I thought we decidedly established that although your DL125 meets your needs, it does not meet the 125mW+ 60 second average DL claims;