Old 07-26-2016, 05:43 PM #1
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Red face 808nm CW IR therapy build

Hello! I'm trying to replicate an infrared therapy device to help with my dog's arthritis. We're currently paying $200 a month for his K Laser treatments, which is enough to make me consider building my own. I have a rudimentary grasp on the physics and engineering behind such a task (college level electrical engineering and physics) so I feel comfortable having a go. I would act as Guinea pig before ever using this on my beloved dog and completely accept liability for anything that may go awry Setting myself on fire or opening a portal to another dimension are not on my to-do list....

My vet was kind enough to supply the specs for the K Laser (she is very interested in the potential outcome too!). The treatment protocol calls for 808nm continuous wave with 3W of power behind it. I understand that 3W would be prohibitively expensive, so I'd probably drop down to 1W and increase treatment time. Comparable builds from HighLaser and Lazerer are between $100 and $280, which is quite a difference in price range.

The part i have absolutely no idea about, and would be extremely grateful for your help, is when it comes to a lens to disburse the beam safely. I cannot even pretend to know what I'm doing when it comes to lenses!

Any help or advice you could offer would be hugely appreciated!


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Old 07-26-2016, 05:56 PM #2
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

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Originally Posted by Ditty View Post
Hello! I'm trying to replicate an infrared therapy device to help with my dog's arthritis. We're currently paying $200 a month for his K Laser treatments, which is enough to make me consider building my own. I have a rudimentary grasp on the physics and engineering behind such a task (college level electrical engineering and physics) so I feel comfortable having a go. I would act as Guinea pig before ever using this on my beloved dog and completely accept liability for anything that may go awry Setting myself on fire or opening a portal to another dimension are not on my to-do list....

My vet was kind enough to supply the specs for the K Laser (she is very interested in the potential outcome too!). The treatment protocol calls for 808nm continuous wave with 3W of power behind it. I understand that 3W would be prohibitively expensive, so I'd probably drop down to 1W and increase treatment time. Comparable builds from HighLaser and Lazerer are between $100 and $280, which is quite a difference in price range.

The part i have absolutely no idea about, and would be extremely grateful for your help, is when it comes to a lens to disburse the beam safely. I cannot even pretend to know what I'm doing when it comes to lenses!

Any help or advice you could offer would be hugely appreciated!
3W really isn't that expensive if you build from scratch. What you need to find out is the required power density. 3W spread over 1m^3 is nothing, 3W spread over 200 microns is a lot of power in a very small spot... That latter would be good if you wanted to perform laser hair removal on your dog. We can only guess at what the power density needs to be really - unless anyone here has experience with this specific therapy/product.

Looking at their products there doesn't seem to be any indication of which power density is best, it just says that it's adjustable. I'd guess that an on board computer sets the power/power density automatically based on some user adjustable parameters - or perhaps density/power/wavelength are set by a trained operator manually. Or possibly both. The company does offer training.

I'm also not seeing a 3W option on the site - all I'm seeing are >10W fiber coupled systems (Several wavelengths available, as well as pulsed mode operation). Fiber would be the way to go - you'd get a nice round, homogeneous beam that way.

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Last edited by diachi; 07-28-2016 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:18 PM #3
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

Thank you for your quick response!

The K lasers themselves are all ~10W, as you say. I figure that replicating the K Laser exactly, with all its many diodes, bells and whistles, would be over-kill for just my one tiny pooch his treatment protocol specifically calls for 3W, 808nm, so I'll try to replicate that for the sake of simplicity and price.

K Laser is very secretive about their specs, but from what I can glean, 2W/cm2 or less is standard. I would probably want to go with 1W/cm2, just to be on the safe side.

My vet said that the K Laser is pretty idiot-proof, and doesn't require much training. The on-board computer takes all of the guesswork out of it and is impressively intuitive (though it should be for $24k!!!) all she could tell me is that the treatment time is 2:48 minutes and total joules stand at 504J.

I have never built a laser before, so I'll have to take your word on 3W pricing.. How much do you think parts should reasonably cost? I'm not opposed to having someone else build it, as long as the price is fair and their reputation is solid.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:44 PM #4
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

I give this stuff another chance and look up some data on it every few months when people bring it up. But when the first google hit from the "experts" claims demonstrably false things like "When you look at the depth of penetration with laser, red laser light only penetrates about one to two millimeters (far less than 1/8 inch) into the human body," and "red lasers heal cuts", I throw it back in the mental recycle bin as garbage science.

Have you considered aspirin? As I understand it, that's a perfectly safe, natural, ultra-cheap treatment for arthritis.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:46 PM #5
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Have you considered aspirin? As I understand it, that's a perfectly safe, natural, ultra-cheap treatment for arthritis.
And the other good treatment, at least for humans, is exercise. Oddly enough.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:02 AM #6
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

In all honesty, I've looked at the same literature 'de-bunking' laser therapy. I have no doubt that much of it, in humans, is psychosomatic. All I know is, my dog went from laying in the same spot day after day, getting up stiffly to eat and use the lawn, to running around the house and yard again. I'm incredibly skeptical (jaded, even) when it comes to woo and quackery, but I don't think my dog (who has a shaking, petrified fear of the vet) could even subconsciously comprehend vet = less pain + running. I would never have agreed to it, but my SO took him to the vet last and had them try the laser on him. When I got home from work, it was like she'd taken our old dog and brought back the same dog from 3 years ago. I literally cried, seeing him jumping and running to sniff everything. So... My skeptical side has been quelled by purely anecdotal evidence.

If you would consider suspending your quackery radar enough to offer any help or advice you might have, I'd very much appreciate it!
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:32 AM #7
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

From everything I've seen, K-Laser is the most transparent company out there. I believe the specs of their lasers are clearly posted in their website, no? They have a couple of 4 wavelength units, which put out up to 18 W or 15 W in continuous wave. And super pulse to a high power, as well.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:40 AM #8
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

Yes, but I don't want to make a K laser. I want to make a laser to the specs listed above: 808nm, <3W continuous wave. I'm just not sure what type of lens to use and I've been unable to find this information on their website. If you've found their density, I'd appreciate the link, thank you!
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Old 07-27-2016, 04:34 AM #9
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

Ah okay. I think their spot size can be adjusted from 1-5cm2. Does that sound right? I heard this from a Chiro friend.
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Old 07-27-2016, 04:45 PM #10
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

Awesome, thank you so much, Bluecollarkid!
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Old 07-28-2016, 04:15 AM #11
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

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My skeptical side has been quelled by purely anecdotal evidence.
Are you familiar with the post hoc fallacy? "after this, therefore because of this". It is certainly possible the animal's condition resolved itself.

Perhaps you could try no treatment of any kind to see if the condition worsens. Afterall, it's not reasonable to treat a condition for a lifetime without evaluating the condition periodically.

Quote:
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If you would consider suspending your quackery radar enough to offer any help or advice you might have, I'd very much appreciate it!
I think you missed the part where I pointed out aspirin is <1 cent per treatment which is a lot easier, cheaper, and safer than pointing a high-power home-made laser at your pet. There are many other options for treatment of this condition - why do you insist on the most expensive one? Because you believe it works? Okay, but why haven't you tried other ones? I just don't get it.
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Old 07-28-2016, 05:03 AM #12
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

You presume to know what treatments - or lack thereof - we have and have not tried. Aspirin was among the first treatments administered, literally years ago, before the risk of causing damage to his liver outweighed the benefits. There are, indeed, a great many treatments available for osteo-arthritis. I am intimately familiar with them all. I feel like I'm metaphorically asking for help putting out a house fire and you're suggesting I buy a fire extinguisher for the kitchen. Thank you for your suggestions, but we're waaaaaay past aspirin.

I find it somewhat amusing that you assume that building a laser was my first, second or even tenth treatment plan... As though my poor pooch had a bit of trouble walking one day and I was like "well, time to build a laser" rather than trying literally everything else first.

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Old 07-28-2016, 05:54 PM #13
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Default Re: 808nm CW IR therapy build

Question, if you stop the IR treatments, I wonder if your dog would slide back to his previous condition, if so, that would be a good indication the treatment was working or not. Have you tried anti-inflammatory herbs? I don't know of curcumin extract is bad for dogs, but it sure works for me. Might be something to research.
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