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PHR just LEDed on me...

IgorT

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rocketparrotlet said:
Excellent post IgorT.  This kind of makes me worry, though.  Do PHR-803T diodes commonly degrade, or is this an unusual occurence?  I have mine set to 120mA right now.  I am not worried about it dying, because then I would just buy a new diode.  However, I don't like the concept that it will slowly lose power as I use it.  Is this fairly inevitable?

-Mark

If you look at diodes datasheet, they have a certain life time specified at a certain power. And at a certain temperature of course. Heat makes them age faster, yes, but that's a completelly different story - in drives, diodes are powered at a constant power, not constant current.

- At a constant power, heat means the driver has to pump more current through a diode, to reach the same power - it increases the strain (same power MORE current)..

- In pointers, we use constant current, and heat just reduces the power - it reduces the strain (came current LESS power). That's why constant current is normally a safe way of powering diodes.

There is a reverse scenario now appearing, and from reports it may be more common in 4x's, but it was present in some weird PHRs - some of them CLIMB in power with heat! In this case it would look like this:

- At a constant power, heat means the driver actually has to use LESS current if the weird diode increases in efficiency with heat. So the driver will lower the current to keep power the same - the strain will reduce a bit (same power, less current).

- At a constant current, heat will increase the efficiency of the diode and the power will climb - the strain will increase (same current, MORE power).

It's weird, but a diode like that could kill itself under conditions, that are normally accepted to be very safe for diodes (constant current).



Anyway, about the lifetime. Their life is specified in MTTF (Mean Time to Failure). It can mean, that in that time one half of the diodes will die, or that in that time diodes will lose half their power.

It's really hard to say what exactly is going to happen.. At 160mA, they drop in power just a little bit and then die. At higher currents they can just die. At 125mA, they can either die completelly, or they can slowly degrade. Or they can just keep living. With diodes like this, you never really know.


It probably depends on HOW defects appear on the die. If the die is perfect, and one point on it fails and starts causing damage to areas around it, and slowly spreads till it causes COD, the diode will just turn to LED - once the defect becomes big enough, it will take the whole diode down with it. It's like a tiny fracture in the car's windshield, that start's spreading, and when it becomes big enough, it just shatters.

If the die has some imperfections already, and they are evenly spread, the "pressure" will be spread out more evenly as well. In this case the imperfections could grow, but being spread out, they might not cause it to die instantly, but instead the power would gradually drop. As the power drops, so does the pressure. If the ratio is just right, the diode could slowly drop in power, but not turn to LED.

So theoretically, it is possible, that high efficiency diodes would die instananeously, while medium or low efficiency diodes would slowly degrade but not die completelly. Pre-existing imperfections can sometimes make things tougher.

Because of this, i tested diodes from all efficiency ranges i found. If i pushed a low efficiency diode to 190mA where it only did 130mW, it died instantly. At 100mW it may have died gradually.


So it's impossible to say what is going on with your diode without using a power meter. The PHRs are strange diodes, that vary in everything from efficiency, wavelength, beam profile, to how much power they can survive for how long.

It could be just fine. Or it could have lost 10mW by now. Small power drops are impossible to notice without a meter. But i have seen diodes, where the power dropped enough, that the user noticed that it doesn't burn as well anymore.


Even if you don't have a meter, you could make a diode "health checker" using a solar cell, in some kind of a box, shielded from external light. It won't tell you the power, but it will tell you if the power is dropping. Altho, small changes in the reading can come from the wavelength drift, with temperature and power drop with temperature. But they will be reversible. If you see a steady decline, that doesn't reverse itself with temperature, then it's degrading.



In any case, unless we were to set them to 60mW, they will die or degrade in under 5 - 8000 hours. The higher you set one, the faster it will degrade. We don't need them to last 5000 hours. We always overdrive diodes. All the reds are overdriven as well. We risk a little, shorten the life, but gain power.


The real question is only this: How much are YOU willing to risk? How long do YOU want or need your diode to live? Do you want more power, or do you want longer life? That's all it's about.

I set my personal lasers high, but i don't expect them to live very long. If i make a laser for someone else, i want reliability over power. If they want more visibility, i select a higher wavelength diode, rather than setting the current higher. If they want more power, i make them aware of the consequences. If they are OK with sending the laser back to me, when the diode burns out, and if they know that it won't live very long, then i set the laser higher sometims. But i have not gone over 143mA, and while some actually survive this i don't even want to do that anymore, because i now know it's just a matter of time.

At 125mA, the losses are low enough for me to consider them acceptable. But i think this is just on the boundary where it can go either way - either a diode turns to LED or degrades. I have no clue how many are actually degrading. Not everyone has a meter. Theoretically, many could have dropped in power considerably by now, depending of course on how much people use them (i don't limit their use in any way, so it's random).

This is why i am very glad, that now 4x's are becoming available.
 





IgorT

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Cyparagon said:
At $15 a pop, I'd be willing to replace a diode every couple months for double the power.

I've been pushing them to 160-190mA when they still cost me $60 each (import fees and taxes). I do it, i won't say that you shouldn't.
I'm just saying, that when someone asks what current to use, they should also be told the consequences of each setting. Even tho we all want power, their usage level and their desires about repairing the laser may not be the same as yours.

Often people ask for a safe power. When they see everyone else using a higher power, they think that it is THEM who is doing something wrong - as was the case here.

If you tell them that 150mW is a safe, reliable power for a PHR, you are spreading misconceptions. And there are enough of those spreading around as it is.


I kill my diodes all the time on purpose, but i won't tell people to kill theirs, when they are just beginning this hobby, soldering their first wire to a diode in fear. When they see light come out, they are extatic. When the diode pops, they can get frustrated. Especiall if it happens many times in a row. That's why i always tell everyone, that killing diodes is a part of this hobby. But they don't have to kill all of them before they even start.


Many of us are chewing through PHRs like candy. There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what YOU want, and if you understand what you're doing. People waste their money on far less essential things, than lasers. ;)

The fake toughness of the PHRs allows us to see powers, that would cost a fortune to reach safelly. But people should understan that it's just temporary. If you have a LOT of restrain, and/or just use it very little, you can keep one going for months. But when i go outside at night with my blu rays, especially now that fog is starting to appear, i will often use them for half an hour straight, sometimes more, only turning them off while searching for a new "target"... And that's on top of my normal use! Because of that, they will only last two weeks, if i push them to 150-170mW. And even that is incredibly long for a PHR at this power.

This same fake toughness has given numerous scammers huge opportunities. e-bay is full of PHRs being sold as 150mW diode. Selling a PHR as a 150mW diode is a scam! The PHR is a 60mW diode at best. A 150mW diode could be pushed to 300mW for as long as the PHR can be to 120mW. Even the GGW 6x may not be rated for 150mW!



EDIT: Back on topic.. My 160mA/170mW PHR just measured in at 165mW at 25°C.. If it doesn't return to 170mW at 20°C, it's dying.



daguin said:
I don't have to replace them every couple of months, but a higher fail rate IS worth it to me.  I can't even see the beam below 150mW.

Me neither, Dave..

Well, i can see it, but it just doesn't give me the same pleasure. Like i said, ever since i first saw 180mW, how could i ever go back. I'm just not happy if my meter says less than 150mW for a blu ray....

Luckily my 6x is still holding up. This is one hell of a diode. And every so often i make myself a 160mA PHR, just to give the 6x some rest.

But then i use them both at once and neither gets any rest...  ;D
 
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You know, I think I would be satisfied even if it does gradually degrade on me. I could always just buy a new one, or even better, wait for the price of the 4x/6x diodes to drop even further. I'll figure something out. But thanks for all of the help IgorT!

-Mark
 

IgorT

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Yeah, at your current it's not really that bad. You do get satisfactory reliability even if you do use it a lot.

My problem is, that i have seen higher powers, and 100mW just don't cut it anymore..  I feel like an addict. :-[


On a side note... The 160mA diode went back to the original power as the ambient temperature dropped. This always scares me, when i see it!
I really hope this one is a surviver, because it is the first diode i found with both a high efficiency, and a high wavelength.
 
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Igor T, how long would you say a 110mA PHR would last if I played with it for ~30min. a day?
 

IgorT

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I have around 40 of them in circulation, most of them at 125mA. And they seem to be doing fine. Some of them have been in use for very long by now. Altho the very first one is the one that dropped to 90mW and is now at 60mW while i continue to test it. The thing is, the user did not even notice this. He had a feeling, but wasn't sure. The laser was sent to me for an upgrade to the new host and to raise the current! But when i saw the power is different from what i had written in my notes, i started testing it instead, and it declined in power ever since. With normal use it would probably have lasted a little longer tho. So instead i put another diode in the module, but raising the current suddenly doesn't seem like such a good idea.

How much people use them, i do not know exactly, but i don't limit their use in any way, so it's random and depends only on the user. I think it's relativelly safe. You might have to replace it in a few months, since you use it a lot, but your current is lower. At 110mA you get 90+/-15mW, sometimes less than 75mW, rarelly more than 105mW. It could last a very long time. But it varies from diode to diode, and is impossible to tell.

If you notice it suddenly burns less well, it's time to get a new diode tho.... By the time you notice this, the 4x's will probably drop in price, and even the 6x's may become available.
 
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My LD is hooked up to a low range Micro Drive with the pot turned up all the way; at 150mA. So far so good. I guess I have a good diode then. ::) Of course now than I said that the thing will break tomarrow. :p

I have found that it takes some drop to permanently harm a diode. I hammered my last Blu Ray LD into it's Aixis module and it's fine.
 

IgorT

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Xplorer877 said:
at 150mA. So far so good. I guess I have a good diode then. ::) Of course now than I said that the thing will break tomarrow. :p

Heh, that happened to me like five times. I stopped saying they will survive, just in case.. I dare not even think it anymore...  ;D


Otherwise, the current is not nearly as important as the power output. A low efficiency diode can put out only 130mW at 190mA! At 150mA you can have pretty much anything from 110-155mW. If it's 110mW, it could live longer than if it's 160mW. But there are so many other factors involved, that it's hard to explain them all without writing a book.

If the efficiency was the only difference, the lower efficiency diode could survive the same current longer. But there must be a reason for the lower efficiency. It can be imperfections in the die. So the die can be more "fragile" but it will exert less pressure on itself, at the same current. And to make it even weirder, those imperfections can make it live longer. It's a strange balance...
 
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WOW, the strangest thing just happened; The diode started lasing again!!! I've rechecked the wiring and nothing is loose or shorting...
 

IgorT

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digital_blue said:
WOW, the strangest thing just happened; The diode started lasing again!!! I've rechecked the wiring and nothing is loose or shorting...

Haha.. Weeks ago, i would have told you, that's impossible. But i saw it with my own eyes.

Just to make sure - when it "died", it was making a weak ugly spot? Or was it completelly dark?
 
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It would make a very faint irregular dot with the collimating lens in. Without the lens, it wasn't much brighter than a UV LED...
 

suiraM

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As a sidebar, the drop in output you are referencing is due to defect migration or somesuch. It is commonly seen in other GaN / InGaN devices. The threshold starts creeping upward as the defects shift through the lattice. The slope efficiency stays the same, however.

It would be interesting to see if anyone has tried keeping the grating that these are usually operated with. A grating reflects a single wavelength back into the cavity, which I think lowers the optic strain, by lowering the difference in optic flux across the facet. The grating might also be sufficient to make a dead diode lase again, if the damage was due to a facet failure, depending on whether it reflects a sufficient amount of light back in there. The beam would be messed up by the cracks in the facet, though.

Also, having just experienced a high wavelength diode temporarily go to lasing yellow (indium impurities cause the wavelength to shift toward the yellow part of the spectrum), I would be curious to hear if anyone else has experienced something similar, or been able to provoke it to do so with a grating and/or cold (it was sub-zero when I experienced this).

Blowing frosty breath into a thin, yellow beam was a pleasant surprise. :)
 




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