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Old 04-09-2012, 09:18 PM #65
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Jerry i have had your meters.
i even had 2 of them side by side along with mine.
And found your meters were out of spec to each other by about 3mw.
Both sensors were nice no dust, no damage that i could see but they were off.
So after seeing that i decided to calibrate mine to yours that read low to make sure i never over estimate my power.


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Old 04-09-2012, 09:24 PM #66
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee



Without having the Thermopile Head in my hands it is
difficult to see if there was any impact trauma to the
head or if the Sensor itself was mechanically forced.

I see 2 issues that don't look pristine in the small photo..

1) there is a white or aluminum spot at the bottom of the
heat sink.

2) every 15mm X 15mm Sensor is black from the coating
process at the spot indicated in the photo...

I won't know what it means until we see it up close in our
shop...


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Tec popped off of Laserbee-img0052xq-1.jpg  
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:30 PM #67
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

I can tell you the spot on the heatsink wiped off,
as for the top of the tec, no clue
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:51 PM #68
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

I see 2 things wrong in these pics.. I would look closer but the pics are small
and not very detailed.

What I do see is what look like a chip in the TEC as well as what looks to be a tooling mark
one would expect from a standard (flat) small screwdriver.



Like I mentioned before, I have had my LPM for 5 years, and NONE of the paint
around the TEC has "wiped off". What I see in those pics tells me that it was picked off.

Again this is just my opinion, but I have taken enough things apart in my time
to know what tampering looks like.

I can take pics of my TEC which has been to hell and back, I can find no scratches
or marks, because I have never tried to remove it.

Coincidentally, the 2 marks ive pointed out are on the open sides of the heatsink
where the edges of the TEC are exposed, and most likely the first to be picked at
should somebody want to remove the TEC.

Im not saying that you did this, perhaps the previous owner, but I would still conclude
tampering in this..
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:53 PM #69
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

that last image looks kinda like a fingernail pressed into the compound.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:57 PM #70
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloompyle View Post
I'm not saying that his laserbee has a patent. But in other words, are his build methods, and processes, techniques, blue-prints, arduino, coding, etc, are they covered/protected? I.E. if someone reverse-engineered a laserbee 2.5 USB unit, and built the EXACT same thing, and sold it under a different name, could said individual be prosecuted?
I find it pretty far-fetched to believe that Radiant was waiting for the moment that a cheap, broken, year-old Laserbee 2.5W would come up for sale, just to buy it cheap to reverse engineer. If the trade secrets were that valuable, I'm sure Radiant would have bought one long ago, even new.

It's also not like Jerry goes to great lengths to hide the design of his LPMs, even in photos. There's no potting, no blurred out ICs, etc. There's a reason for that: the major value in the meter Jerry provides, or any meter for that matter, is in the sensor and its calibration parameters--the part that makes the meter a meter. Otherwise, what is the difference? You could plug a $20 Arduino to a sharpied TEC and read off the values as a "meter" right?

You buy a Laserbee, or any meter, because it's calibrated and accurate. This is also why Jerry is charging a little less than half the price of the Laserbee for recoating the sensor and recalibration. Yeah, it seems expensive, but those are valuable aspects of the Laserbee--and what you are actually paying for in a meter--not the LCD, electronics, etc. Hell, someone could even reverse engineer the firmware on the chip, and it probably wouldn't be that valuable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
EU legislation goes a lot further where customer protection is concerned: Warantee is obligatory for a period of time that is 'normal' for the type of product in question. As an example: A laptop has to be repaired free of charge for a period of 2 years after purchase, even if the manufacturer only gives one year of warantee. In some cases (particularly with Apple products) this has caused quite some problems, as the retailer is ultimately responsible for handling the warantee.
That type of "consumer protection" swings both ways: do I want to pay extra, as first purchaser, because of some law that guarantees a warranty period for the next person I sell the product to--if I do? Conversely, how many people would opt to pay extra just to ensure that what they buy second-hand will come with whatever warranty the first-purchaser had? As far as I'm concerned, when you buy something second-hand, you're assuming some risk, for the benefit of reduced prices.

As good as these warranty laws sound, I think many people forget that these types of "consumer rights" do not come for free. They get priced into the products you pay, much like a tax--a tax you may not support or ever benefit from. If selling products to the EU region required warranty transference, Jerry could easily just tack on $20 to the original price to cover the charges--and off the blame on the EU policies.

This is like those laws that force manufacturers to warranty their products for life. They sound good on paper, but many products--like hard drives--are not worth paying extra up front for something that should be replaced over time anyway. Furthermore, I want to be given the choice of what warranties I pay for.

These warranty policies may indeed reflect the different views across the Atlantic. The warranty rights might prop up the secondary/reseller market at the expense of first-purchasers. I guess it depends on what you value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiyoukan View Post
that last image looks kinda like a fingernail pressed into the compound.
I think it's just an epoxy fracture.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:40 PM #71
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

I think the obligation to fulfill warantee on second owners is a very reasonable consumer right, especially when there is no reason to assume that the transfer of ownership would damage the device in any way - and i honestly cannot think of any argument why that would be the case with a LPM.

As for paying extra for this service: I'm not really sure how much of a price increase it causes. It cannot be offered as an option in europe when selling to consumers.

The only legal way to sell something with the warantee conditions on the laserbee within europe would be to offer it as parts for scrap.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:55 PM #72
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

You seem to misunderstand... We are in Canada and as such we
are not bound by European laws.. We are only bound by Canadian
laws.
If the LaserBee would be outlawed by European laws it would be
stopped at any European Customs checkpoint. Once we would be
aware of the Customs seizure we would not sell anymore in Europe.

It is as simple as that and the only ones being deprived and penalized
would be European buyers...

Either way... the question is moot on this thread...
This thread was about a 10-1/2 month old used LaserBee with
a warranty that had been void 1 month before the OP bought it
second hand from someone else.


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Old 04-11-2012, 02:54 AM #73
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I think the obligation to fulfill warantee on second owners is a very reasonable consumer right, especially when there is no reason to assume that the transfer of ownership would damage the device in any way - and i honestly cannot think of any argument why that would be the case with a LPM.

As for paying extra for this service: I'm not really sure how much of a price increase it causes. It cannot be offered as an option in europe when selling to consumers.
Every right can be considered "reasonable"; it just depends on what rights people are willing to pay extra for. Your government could also mandate lifetime warranties on products--as a "consumer right". It's reasonable because people should expect that their products are well built for life, and that would encourage better construction. However, do you think that those extra rights would come free?

"Consumer rights" are not free. When your government makes such policies mandatory, as yours has, it takes away your decision in the matter, and the powers that be (the manufacturers) will compensate for it with higher prices even if only as an excuse. It's probably why it costs more to buy things in Europe locally than it does for me to import them from Europe directly from half a world away.

This really is a cultural difference between the US and Europe: what Europeans may see as a reasonable extension of rights, Americans--and to a great extent their neighbors to the north--may see as an unnecessary tax that consumers should decide to pay for if they desire. I know I have no desire to pay extra for second-hand owner warranties, even in the off-chance I might benefit some day. It may be different across the Atlantic.

Quote:
The only legal way to sell something with the warantee conditions on the laserbee within europe would be to offer it as parts for scrap.
Yes, expensive "scrap" with no warranty. Now you have even less.
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:55 AM #74
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
You seem to misunderstand... We are in Canada and as such we
are not bound by European laws.. We are only bound by Canadian
laws.
If the LaserBee would be outlawed by European laws it would be
stopped at any European Customs checkpoint.
Selling it from canada to the european market is no problem, canadian law applies indeed. There is no warrantee demand of any kind for goods imported from outside of the european economic zone. Obviously chinese imports also come in with similar or worse warantee conditions all the time.

I only ment to say that IF you were selling these FROM europe this warrantee model would not be allowed.
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:20 AM #75
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
Selling it from canada to the european market is no problem, canadian law applies indeed. There is no warrantee demand of any kind for goods imported from outside of the european economic zone. Obviously chinese imports also come in with similar or worse warantee conditions all the time.

I only ment to say that IF you were selling these FROM europe this warrantee model would not be allowed.
I agree.... but I can also state for a fact that the price of our products
would surely increase to almost double the selling price it is set at
now to cover the outrageous (as I see it) European Lifetime warranty
on manufactured items.

Even human life isn't Guaranteed forever.... why should a product
built by humans be guaranteed for life.

All European customers would ultimately pay for that extended
warranty cost. His possible right/option to choose to pay extra for an
extended warranty whether he wanted it or not has been taken away
and the customer MUST pay extra for the same product that would
sell for much less elsewhere.

I prefer having the right to choose to pay a lot less for products I
decide to purchase...


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Old 04-11-2012, 11:04 AM #76
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Its not lifetime warantee really... but the duration depends on the kind of product. You should get a normal usable life out of something, for a laptop computer that is usually 2 years, perhaps 3. On something like a washing machine you may expect more, perhaps 5 years with normal use.

Also, there is a drop off in what retailers have to reimburse if a product fails after a longer period of time: If you for example bought a TV that is supposed to last at least 5 years but it breaks after 4, only part of the price has to be refunded.

I'm not sure how long the expected life of a power meter would be though, and i doubt something similar has ever been tested in court. I'd expect at least 2 years though.

If the 2 years were mandatory, i wonder how much more expensive these meters would really become: I assume that the vast majority of them last 2 years or longer (?).
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:31 PM #77
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Well here in the USA on used items you will sometimes get a line of sight or a tail light (for cars) warranty But if you break it you are shitoutofluck no matter how long the warranty is.


edit: Not saying that happened?
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Last edited by n2stuff; 04-11-2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:39 PM #78
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Let me see if I can pull this together . . .

"A" bought an LPM in May 2011
Said LPM had a 6-month warranty
The warranty expired in November 2011

"B" bought the LPM in December 2011
He used the LPM for 4 months

So "B" bought a used, "out of warranty" LPM and used it for 4 months

Now "B" wants to get a warranty repair?

Did I miss something?

Peace,
dave
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Last edited by daguin; 04-11-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:35 PM #79
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

^^ that's about the size of it.


Crazy...
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:56 PM #80
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Default Re: Tec popped off of Laserbee

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
Let me see if I can pull this together . . .

"A" bought an LPM in May 2011
Said LPM had a 6-month warranty
The warranty expired in November 2011

"B" bought the LPM in December 2011
He used the LPM for 4 months

So "B" bought a used, "out of warranty" LPM and used it for 4 months

Now "B" wants to get a warranty repair?

Did I miss something?

Peace,
dave
Well, yes...
Did you read my original post?
-I made this thread hoping to fix my lpm on my own.

Did I say I expected to have it fixed under warranty?
-no

Sure I would have been great to have it fixed by laserbee for free,
But I realize, in the end laserbee is going to do whatever makes the most money
Just like any other company.
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