SUPER FREAK "445nm diode"

DTR · Feb 5, 2012

Very nice catch you got there. I have seen a few 2W @ 1.5A as well and from what I hear Yob built one that is hitting over 2.5W. Would we think it is safe to say these are the 1.7W rated Nichia diodes yet and if so how would be prove that.:thinking:

rhd · Feb 6, 2012

lazeerer said:
I got to say though that i think in the H Series projector that Rhd has been going through that will see more efficient diodes in the H series as common then in the M140. Increasing the chances of finding diodes like this. Thats just my gut feeling. To bad they are to expensive to Explore unless you get a good deal on them.

I cant wait to hear his findings.

It's interesting - I've said this to both Lazeerer and DTR before - but I don't really believe the H-series has different diodes than the M. I'm even going as far as to say that I believe if you bought an A-series that was manufactured TODAY (they're still making them), we'd get these same diodes in them.

I say this, because I just frankly don't think KasEO or Nichia would be binning millions of diodes. I know they could automate this step, but it wouldn't be the most reasonable approach to achieve what they want to achieve. Remember, as far as we're concerned, the projectors are actually under-driving these diodes. All they need to do to standardize lumen output, is fill an array up with diodes, install it in the machine, measure the "out-the-front" lumens, and adjust the overall array current +/- like 10% (maybe even less of a range) to make sure they get the expected lumens. Even the 3000 lumen projectors (vs the 2500) just push current a bit higher. And for that matter, the 3500 lumen (like my H series) or the 4000 lumen (like the H series a model up from mine) are just adding an additional 8 or 16 diodes (for 32 or 40 in total).

So logic is against the notion that these diodes are any different. It makes a lot more sense to me that KasEO buys huge batches from Nichia, and at some stage (around the time they incremented models and came out with the Ms), their previous batch was exhausted, and they transitioned to a new batch from Nichia. Since we know that Nichia has improved their diode, this new batch was the new diode, and the previous batch wasn't.

HOWEVER, this H series projector has been a better diode source than the M240. For one, there hasn't been a single "dud" (low efficiency diode) in the almost 20 I've tested so far. They have also been showing a higher average wavelength.

DTR said:
Very nice catch you got there. I have seen a few 2W @ 1.5A as well and from what I hear Yob built one that is hitting over 2.5W. Would we think it is safe to say these are the 1.7W rated Nichia diodes yet and if so how would be prove that.:thinking:

One way, would be to ask someone to dissect a dead M-series diode and look for the protective diode that is supposed to be somewhere inside the casing. I'm not sure what this would look like, but I do believe that it was a new addition in the NDB7875. If we found it, this would be proof positive. If we didn't, it *wouldn't* be proof negative however, because we know that the batch KasEO gets from Nichia departs from the datasheet when it comes to package size. So if the diode is there, that's a good indication that we've got the new diodes. If it isn't, that won't really tell us anything.

Garoq · Feb 6, 2012

RHD, the latest A-series that I harvested is yielding diodes very similar in output to the M-series.

lazeerer · Feb 6, 2012

rhd said:
It's interesting - I've said this to both Lazeerer and DTR before - but I don't really believe the H-series has different diodes than the M. I'm even going as far as to say that I believe if you bought an A-series that was manufactured TODAY (they're still making them), we'd get these same diodes in them.

I say this, because I just frankly don't think KasEO or Nichia would be binning millions of diodes. I know they could automate this step, but it wouldn't be the most reasonable approach to achieve what they want to achieve. Remember, as far as we're concerned, the projectors are actually under-driving these diodes. All they need to do to standardize lumen output, is fill an array up with diodes, install it in the machine, measure the "out-the-front" lumens, and adjust the overall array current +/- like 10% (maybe even less of a range) to make sure they get the expected lumens. Even the 3000 lumen projectors (vs the 2500) just push current a bit higher. And for that matter, the 3500 lumen (like my H series) or the 4000 lumen (like the H series a model up from mine) are just adding an additional 8 or 16 diodes (for 32 or 40 in total).

So logic is against the notion that these diodes are any different. It makes a lot more sense to me that KasEO buys huge batches from Nichia, and at some stage (around the time they incremented models and came out with the Ms), their previous batch was exhausted, and they transitioned to a new batch from Nichia. Since we know that Nichia has improved their diode, this new batch was the new diode, and the previous batch wasn't.

HOWEVER, this H series projector has been a better diode source than the M240. For one, there hasn't been a single "dud" (low efficiency diode) in the almost 20 I've tested so far. They have also been showing a higher average wavelength.

One way, would be to ask someone to dissect a dead M-series diode and look for the protective diode that is supposed to be somewhere inside the casing. I'm not sure what this would look like, but I do believe that it was a new addition in the NDB7875. If we found it, this would be proof positive. If we didn't, it *wouldn't* be proof negative however, because we know that the batch KasEO gets from Nichia departs from the datasheet when it comes to package size. So if the diode is there, that's a good indication that we've got the new diodes. If it isn't, that won't really tell us anything.

Maybe C@s*0 is NOT binning them but maybe Nichia is before shipping them out. Dont they test there diodes.? If not it could be special request from C@s*0 and pay extra for this service. Just trying to keep an Open mind here.

If these are the New Diodes would there be any physical difference under a microscope of the die.? If they did add the protective diode we would need someone with a Microscope to examine and see if they can find it. I dont think it will be an easy Noticed.

However I do have a 1 very Low efficent M140 and id be willing to send it out to a member with a Microscope.

Garoq said:
RHD, the latest A-series that I harvested is yielding diodes very similar in output to the M-series.

Hmm.:thinking:

rhd · Feb 6, 2012

I didn't have a ton of time this weekend, but I did manage to build with two of the H series diodes. I selectively picked two diodes that performed well at 1A of current in testing (I picked two that would do 1.4W of raw optical output for 1A of input, as read on an Ophir sensor). That said, about 1/3rd of the diodes I tested were able to perform in this range at 1A, so these two builds aren't necessarily the most powerful two diodes (ie, I didn't bin them at full 1.76A). These readings are with G lenses:

H series build 1:
H series build 1 - YouTube

H series build 2:
H series build 2 - YouTube

lazeerer · Feb 6, 2012

Yeah.^^^ Eat that.:drool: 2.7W+ peak. Thats Insane.

What are those running at.?

Blord · Feb 6, 2012

Ouch 2.7W laser power !!

It is just matter of time to find the hyper-efficient diode that gives 3Watt.

DTR · Feb 6, 2012

rhd said:
I say this, because I just frankly don't think KasEO or Nichia would be binning millions of diodes. I know they could automate this step, but it wouldn't be the most reasonable approach to achieve what they want to achieve. Remember, as far as we're concerned, the projectors are actually under-driving these diodes..

Check this out on the PT-54's. I remember before seeing that they are binned @ the factory. Although for some reason they want you to contact them now to have access to the Datasheet I remember reading the PDF on binning and it said that they were all sold based on the binned wavelength and output. There were quite a few levels of binning that you could choose from. You can see the PDF on binning still exists even though they won't let you access it.
Luminus Devices: Color LEDs

This tells me that binning may be a pretty standard practice on LED"s and diodes so I would say there is a chance Nichia bins the diodes and sells them accordingly.

Also I do have some news. I have seen they have started putting markings on the blocks like they did with the A series. The M140's I got in my most recent batch all had M1 written in hand on the block as the A140's had X1 and A130's had B1.

rhd · Feb 6, 2012

lazeerer said:
Yeah.^^^ Eat that.:drool: 2.7W+ peak. Thats Insane.

What are those running at.?

They're running at ~1.75 A.

DTR: I can't remember if I mentioned this to you, but the H-series ditches the PT-54 in favour of the PT-121.

I ran 20A+ through the PT-121 and it survived. It took what I assume to be double that (and I say assumed because my DMM couldn't measure any higher) to kill the RED PT-121.

I still have the blue PT-121 and it is quite an impressive little emitter. The cabling to the PT-121s inside the projector was easily 10x the width of the cables used for the PT-54s. In fact, let me go grab a photo. BRB.

EDIT: Ok, off topic (completely), but here's what the PT-121s look like:
http://laserpointerforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36425&stc=1&d=1328495335

DTR · Feb 6, 2012

Yep I have a green PT-121. It is an amazing unit. I have only been able to get 9A into it and it looked like it could handle a ton more. @ 9A it was insanely bright. Can't image 20A.

lazeerer · Feb 6, 2012

DTR said:
Check this out on the PT-54's. I remember before seeing that they are binned @ the factory. Although for some reason they want you to contact them now to have access to the Datasheet I remember reading the PDF on binning and it said that they were all sold based on the binned wavelength and output. There were quite a few levels of binning that you could choose from. You can see the PDF on binning still exists even though they won't let you access it.
Luminus Devices: Color LEDs

This tells me that binning may be a pretty standard practice on LED"s and diodes so I would say there is a chance Nichia bins the diodes and sells them accordingly.

Also I do have some news. I have seen they have started putting markings on the blocks like they did with the A series. The M140's I got in my most recent batch all had M1 written in hand on the block as the A140's had X1 and A130's had B1.

Exactly. This is what i meant above by saying most likely Nichia is binning them not c@s*0. They got to be. Why would they not. Its more benefit to them because they can sell them at premium price.

Most LED's are binned for sure. Look at XML LED's For Example, how many different bins are out there.

All produce a diffrent Max Brightness.

Iam still going on my gut feeling.

What do you think is the meaning behind the Markings.? Part of the binning.?

Edit:
Ive Hit the PT-54 Red LED with 14A with no Problem.!

In fact in my tri build with fresh cells it starts off at ~11 with regular DMM prongs. I can imagine that its close to 12-13A if i was using thicker wiring to test.

Dave934 · Feb 6, 2012

Excellent information, RHD:beer:When do you think you will do your first h-series build.
I can not wait for the rest of the results from your research:gj::drool:

rhd · Feb 6, 2012

DTR: Where did you find a PT-121? (or did you just legitimately buy it?)

The array in the H-series was marked on a few of the components, not surprisingly, with an "H". It looked like a basic sharpie had been used.

One other comment - If you haven't actually seen the H-series up close (as I hadn't until it arrived), it's pretty difficult to grasp from the photos, just how freaking large it is.

Here's a comparison. You'll have to forgive me for only showing the cases (but I think that's a smart move). I've blurred the logo too, out of courtesy to Ave / KasEO. In a nutshell though, what you have is an A-series case (stuffed with socks since the projector is not inside) next to the H-series case (with the projector inside).

This is a VERY large and heavy unit. I'd estimate that its volume (displacement) is 6 to 8 times that of an A-series.

Sigurthr · Feb 6, 2012

My gosh... These diodes make my 1310mW one look like a wimp! Sure, it's only at 1200mA, but still!

rhd · Feb 6, 2012

Alright, there might be something to the notion that the diodes are different across series.

Another build from this weekend was partially complete, and I got inspired to finish it up. This is a neat host because there's a tailcap that provides two modes (somehow - I'm assuming with an internal resistor inside the clicky, as there's no circuitry). At any rate, this one also peaks over 2.6W with a G lens.

H series build 3 - YouTube

Jacob32123 · Feb 6, 2012

When do you estimate will we see the PT-121s for sale the the PT-54s are now?

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