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Old 01-08-2012, 09:36 PM #33
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by benmwv View Post
Seems to me like he is pulling this all out of his A$$.

@Brenner

If you are such an advocate and know so much about the batteries, surely you must own one? If you dont then everything you said would be based solely on a youtube video and some vague "facts" you seem to derive from this paragraph from that link you posted:


Being so sure of the fact that it wont get hot at all, please upload a video of yourself holding your battery in your hand, with a thermometer on it, shorting it with a piece of copper (or a high amperage meter so we can see what currents it discharges at would be better).
Sure I do,

Vague facts are from Panasonic - not from me.

As I said in previous post - no need to defend Panasonic.


I didn't made those batteries.


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Old 01-08-2012, 09:45 PM #34
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
Brenner: You're full of it

I put forward a very basic/simple question: What happens to 22W of power, if it isn't converted into heat? Where does it go?

If you weren't just making stuff up, and had an answer, you could have posted it in one sentence (heck, probably in a few words). You didn't. You wrote another 5 lines, and directed us back to videos, etc.

Don't defend Panasonic, defend your own claim. You can't, or you would have.
Sometime

Trying to make discussions more interesting, otherwise no discussions at all.

It seems that battery somehow "disconnect" itself from the circuit, but not completely.

Will try one of these days with equipment actually connected all the time during the test.

I definitely want to make similar video , but have to buy new fire extinguisher
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:47 PM #35
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
Sometime

Trying to make discussions more interesting, otherwise no discussions at all.

It seems that battery somehow "disconnect" itself from the circuit, but not completely.

Will try one of these days with equipment actually connected all the time during the test.

I definitely want to make similar video , but have to buy new fire extinguisher
There you go, finally, an explanation:

"It has some sort of short-circuit disconnect protection"

It's a protected (or maybe in this case semi-protected) cell. Done. Explained. It sounds like this is a case of not actually having a complete short of the cell.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:59 PM #36
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Default Re: IMR batteries

From the start it seems obvious that one safety feature or another is preventing a True short. I don't believe Callie would shoot themselves in the foot with lies while they have a nice thing going.
The panasonic ncr18650a ends at 3.76v after an hour "shorted"... Something is limiting the short. Compare that to Callies short of AW IMR LiMn & Panasonic high output li-ion here. *I'm thinking Callie misspoke calling the panasonic an "IMR" instead of high output since "IMR" seems to be exclusively LiMn.

Doesn't sound like it would be HRL to me. An external short could be prevented with another feature. Panasonic only claims HRL is meant for internal short-circuit & its reasonable that you need a different approach for internal vs external short.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic PDF
In spite of the increased power, which normally gives rise to an increased safety risk,
Panasonic batteries remain particularly safe thanks to the patented Heat Resistant
Layer (HRL) technology. This solution consists of an insulated metal oxide film
between the electrodes, which prevents overheating even in the case of an internal
short-circuit.

※Edit※ You guys are too fast for me
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Last edited by HaloBlu; 01-08-2012 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:02 PM #37
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Internal short-circuit is an entirely different animal.

I just watched the first battery video. It's simply not possible. If the capacity was indeed 2900mAh like they say, that means less than 3A average was drawn during the short - it still wasn't empty after an hour. If it draws 3A during a short, how in Rod's name did they do a discharge test at 4A?

The one tested was unprotected as they claim. So at the very least that is a lie.
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Last edited by Cyparagon; 01-08-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:07 PM #38
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Default Re: IMR batteries

In my post #20 I pretty much say what is protecting these cells from overheating
insulated metal oxide

Panasonic in their text use word cease

From Panasonic:

" Even if a short-circuit occurs, it will cease without causing the battery to overheat."
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:09 PM #39
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Internal short-circuit is an entirely different animal.

I just watched the battery video. The one tested was unprotected as they claim. It's simply not possible. If the capacity was indeed 2900mAh like they say, that means less than 3A average was drawn during the short - it still wasn't empty after an hour. If it draws 3A during a short, how in Rod's name did they do a discharge test at 4A?
It is not 2900 it is 3100mAh model.

Read my post above, and it will make it clear.

At first I did not believe, but...
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:27 PM #40
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaloBlu View Post
From the start it seems obvious that one safety feature or another is preventing a True short. I don't believe Callie would shoot themselves in the foot with lies while they have a nice thing going.
The panasonic ncr18650a ends at 3.76v after an hour "shorted"... Something is limiting the short. Compare that to Callies short of AW IMR LiMn & Panasonic high output li-ion here. *I'm thinking Callie misspoke calling the panasonic an "IMR" instead of high output since "IMR" seems to be exclusively LiMn.

Doesn't sound like it would be HRL to me. An external short could be prevented with another feature. Panasonic only claims HRL is meant for internal short-circuit & its reasonable that you need a different approach for internal vs external short.


※Edit※ You guys are too fast for me


Panasonic should give some spare parts for getting "hammered" when protecting their freaking HRL and NNP technology.

Video above has nothing to do with 3100mAh model that I was talking about

This is the video of the NCR18650A torture test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErKyND4_Gf4


See this link (Panasonic document)

Catalogue - Lithium-Ion/NNP + HRL Technology NCR-18650A - Panasonic Industrial Batteries - (Version JPG)

Pay attention on Nr 10

Last edited by Brenner; 01-08-2012 at 10:47 PM. Reason: Link to video NCR18650A
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:59 PM #41
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Default Re: IMR batteries

AW IMR's are simply IMR's sold by Andy White out of Hong Kong, suppose to be the best as far as IMR's go, the brand name "AW" is simply his initials, I have about a dozen of them bought directly and that is the name that comes back from paypal. They have as you know a sticker on them that says "AW", not really sure who the OEM is.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:28 AM #42
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
In my post #20 I pretty much say what is protecting these cells from overheating
insulated metal oxide
Redundancy aside, I've already pointed out internal short-circuit is entirely different from a conventional short-circuit.

You haven't addressed my other points. If you don't understand what's going on, just say so. That's fine. What isn't fine is wild speculation.
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:41 AM #43
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
Sometime
It seems that battery somehow "disconnect" itself from the circuit, but not completely.
Hah I actually suggested that in my post #23

Quote:
Maybe there is somekind of a "switch" which prevents the full discharge when short occurs

Last edited by foulmist; 01-09-2012 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:31 AM #44
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Redundancy aside, I've already pointed out internal short-circuit is entirely different from a conventional short-circuit.

You haven't addressed my other points. If you don't understand what's going on, just say so. That's fine. What isn't fine is wild speculation.
I wouldn't agree that internal short circuit is entirely different than external one. One could lead to another. But that is not important any more.

Just defended that guy who posted the video of Panasonic NCR18650A handling 1 hr short circuit. You said it is a lie, which is not OK IMO.
Documentation was provided, but nobody read that. And that's the reason I think jumping on people with all kind of accusations is not OK at all.

I hope you guys at least enjoying the fact that you now know more about new 18650 3100mAh Panasonic battery that clearly has no competitor in 18650 battery world.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:58 PM #45
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Default Re: IMR batteries

@ Brenner

Sanyo batteries have always had the lowest resistance out of the usual crop of Li-Ions, thus they are considered an excellent battery.

How does the Panasonic 3100 & 2900 stack up in terms of their resistance compared to Sanyo's? Besides the capacity difference between the 3100 & 2900 you sell, any other real differences?

Thanks
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:37 AM #46
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by electron View Post
@ Brenner

Sanyo batteries have always had the lowest resistance out of the usual crop of Li-Ions, thus they are considered an excellent battery.

How does the Panasonic 3100 & 2900 stack up in terms of their resistance compared to Sanyo's? Besides the capacity difference between the 3100 & 2900 you sell, any other real differences?

Thanks
With a Panasonic 3100, you'd get a lot of run-time out of that 635 build I *gave you*.....
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:21 PM #47
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by electron View Post
@ Brenner

Sanyo batteries have always had the lowest resistance out of the usual crop of Li-Ions, thus they are considered an excellent battery.

How does the Panasonic 3100 & 2900 stack up in terms of their resistance compared to Sanyo's? Besides the capacity difference between the 3100 & 2900 you sell, any other real differences?

Thanks
Basically, sanyos won't choke themselves off, while apparently these cells increase their internal resistance when you try to pull more current.

and yes, these give you extra capacity, but at the cost of having no protection circuits that match them yet. i.e. you better be watching your voltages...
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:18 AM #48
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by electron View Post
@ Brenner

Sanyo batteries have always had the lowest resistance out of the usual crop of Li-Ions, thus they are considered an excellent battery.

How does the Panasonic 3100 & 2900 stack up in terms of their resistance compared to Sanyo's? Besides the capacity difference between the 3100 & 2900 you sell, any other real differences?

Thanks
Sanyo batteries are great, no doubt about that. Sanyo is Panasonic now.

Panasonic Internal resistance

Model: NCR18650A Capacity: 3100mAh

48mΩ /withing 1 hour after quick charging at 1.5A / at 25 Celsius degrees


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