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Old 01-07-2012, 03:44 PM #17
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Default Re: IMR batteries

This guy (from the video clip) is selling them with protection added, but the problem is they are oversized which makes them incompatible with many flashlights, and lasers.

I decided to go with bare cells, and bare cell with button top.


Bare cell lower cut off voltage is 2.5V vs. other cells 2.75V .
Doesn't generate any excessive heat- which you can see from this video as well (even when shorted for 1 hr)
Upper limit - up to 10A (Redilast protection trigger is set to cut off at 10A). Working current 6.2A no problems.

See the Panasonic NCR18650A "torture" test here :

Callies Kustoms 3100mAh Panasonic 18650 batteries on sale now! - YouTube


Enjoy


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Old 01-07-2012, 07:10 PM #18
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimdt7 View Post
I want to see this

Jim
If they weren't such pricey batteries, I'd be up for an experiment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
Panasonic NCR 18650A can be shorted (positive-wire-negative) for 1 hour = no excessive heat, no some crazy reactions, and after one hour you can use it again.
This doesn't make sense to me. If you short a cell, and it's a true short (there's no protection circuit) then you've go to be dissipating energy somewhere. That's going to have to be heat.

Side-note: Can someone explain to me the the nomenclature use in "AW IMR" ? Where does the AW come from, as opposed to the IMR ?
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Old 01-07-2012, 09:28 PM #19
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Default Re: IMR batteries

What I recall is that AW started with the IMR name for their LiMn batteries & others just picked up on it. Proper name should be LiMn but people still call them IMR. I mean IMR isn't a chemistry or abbreviation of one is it?

I read that it was supposedly "lMR" (lower case L) at first but was changed since it was being confused... Not really buying that, could have changed it to "LMR".

Ok, more I think of it, more I want to find out where IMR started.
Here's a claim its "LMR" I seen it mentioned elsewhere, as well as LCR.

Meh. No idea.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:20 AM #20
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
This doesn't make sense to me. If you short a cell, and it's a true short (there's no protection circuit) then you've go to be dissipating energy somewhere. That's going to have to be heat.
How is it possible for Panasonic NCR18650A to stay relatively cool when shorted?

Answer:
HRL (Heat Resistant Layer) technology developed by Panasonic:
It is insulated metal oxide film between the electrodes, which prevents battery overheating even if short-circuit occurs.




Quote:
Originally Posted by HaloBlu View Post
^ I don't know about the "no excessive heat" but I recall a video of (I believe) a Panasonic 18650 long term short. I'm sure Brenner will chime in about it, unless I'm losing it.
HaloBlu,
No, you are not losing it , yet
You definitely deserved a special discount for bringing much needed humor to this pretty serious board.

Next A123
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:12 PM #21
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
How is it possible for Panasonic NCR18650A to stay relatively cool when shorted?

Answer:
HRL (Heat Resistant Layer) technology developed by Panasonic:
It is insulated metal oxide film between the electrodes, which prevents battery overheating even if short-circuit occurs.
You're just confusing me more.

1) Why would you want to insulate a heat source? That just amplifies the heat. It would be like saying "let's put a massive blanket over this space heater so it doesn't get warm in here."

2) The amount of insulation you can fit into an 18650 is minimal, and would eat up so much space that battery capacity goes way down.

3) Even with the best insulation, that heat will penetrate it far sooner than an hour.

4) Short-circuit means what current? Surely it's got to be around 20A. It simply isn't possible for an 18650 to sustain 20A for an hour.

5) The basic premise itself is something of a contradiction. What limits the short-circuit current? Higher Internal resistance. What is the source of heat? Higher current. If the internal resistance is low, the current is very high, and so is the heat that is generated in the battery. If the internal resistance is high, the battery is useless because it sags under load.

I'm starting to think you're just making sht up.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:30 PM #22
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I'm starting to think you're just making sht up.
I agree. I don't buy it. I'll preface by saying that I've seen the videos by Custom Cally, or whomever that seller was that jumped on here promoting the NCR18650A a few months back.

We don't really need to get super-technical about the battery itself, or the chemistry. We only need the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Energy doesn't just "vanish" because you come up with a great new insulator, or a fantastic new material for the guts of your cell. Energy has to go somewhere, and if it's not staying inside the cell, or exiting into an actual circuit, then there is only one place for that energy to go: heat

Forget about 20A, we don't need to go that far to see the absurdity of the no-heat claim. Let's just say these cells were regular old 2C lithium ions. These are 3000 mAh cells, so we're implying at least 6A of current, at a nominal voltage of 3.7, we're looking at about 22 Watts.

You don't need to defend Panasonic's "Heat Resistant Layer" or the merrits of using "insulated metal oxide film" between the electrodes. All you need to do to satisfy me, is tell me where all that wattage is going.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:34 PM #23
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Default Re: IMR batteries

I think LarryDFW can fill in the gaps here about the protection of the batteries.

He did say something about a protection layer of these types of batteries.
Maybe there is somekind of a "switch" which prevents the full discharge when short occurs

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Old 01-08-2012, 07:35 PM #24
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Guys, I would like to see your point of view against Panasonic's research & development team.

I will only say this:
in order to understand how new technology works you have to do some research, and you have to pass year 2007. I did my on time.

To give you some clue - what do you think why Tesla Motors is using this exact same NCR18650A 3100mAh Panasonic battery for their sport electric cars.

Is Model S going to use new version of Panasonic 18650 series battery? | Forums | Tesla Motors

They will release 4000Mah version in 2013.


Foulmist, That seller is selling Samsung cells that are made in 2007 , and have nothing to do with new patented by Panasonic technology.





Right now my attention is focused on Nanophosphate lithium ion battery technology . Must say that this stuff rocks.


Be safe.

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Old 01-08-2012, 07:58 PM #25
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
in order to understand how new technology works you have to do some research, and you have to pass year 2007. I did my on time.
So... you make a wild claim, and then you tell us to prove it?
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:09 PM #26
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Internet can do wonders if you just type a few words in any search engine search box:

Read this wild claim from Panasonic:

https://industrial.panasonic.com/eu/...-Ion_NNP_E.pdf


I hope , that you understand now, that those claims are not from me. I just want people do their work before jumping in any discussion.


I apologize if I hurt anybody's feelings.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:25 PM #27
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
I will only say this:
in order to understand how new technology works you have to do some research, and you have to pass year 2007. I did my on time.

Right now my attention is focused on Nanophosphate lithium ion battery technology . Must say that this stuff rocks
No need to look past 2007, you're still not looking beyond basic physics from 1850. You've replied with buzz words, yet no response to my most basic of questions - Where does the energy go, if not into heat?

Here I'll quote myself, just in case you missed it. Bottom line it for us. A simple concise response to this question will shut me up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
All you need to do to satisfy me, is tell me where all that wattage is going.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:04 PM #28
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Answer on your question is so simple, but...

To make it easier for you, because I see that you are very well informed .

There is only one option, and it is so easy that I cannot believe you cannot figure that out.

Watch that guy on YouTube again and start thinking.

What he is doing is not fake like somebody here said.


Enjoy
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:08 PM #29
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenner View Post
Answer on your question is so simple, but...

To make it easier for you, because I see that you are very well informed .

There is only one option, and it is so easy that I cannot believe you cannot figure that out.

Watch that guy on YouTube again and start thinking.

What he is doing is not fake like somebody here said.


Enjoy
So simple - yet you're not stating it?

-1 from me if you keep jerking us around. Grow up, defend your position, and state your explanation.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:29 PM #30
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Seems to me like he is pulling this all out of his A$$.

@Brenner

If you are such an advocate and know so much about the batteries, surely you must own one? If you dont then everything you said would be based solely on a youtube video and some vague "facts" you seem to derive from this paragraph from that link you posted:
Quote:
In spite of the increased power, which normally gives rise to an increased safety risk,
Panasonic batteries remain particularly safe thanks to the patented Heat Resistant
Layer (HRL) technology. This solution consists of an insulated metal oxide film
between the electrodes, which prevents overheating even in the case of an internal
short-circuit.
Being so sure of the fact that it wont get hot at all, please upload a video of yourself holding your battery in your hand, with a thermometer on it, shorting it with a piece of copper (or a high amperage meter so we can see what currents it discharges at would be better).
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:31 PM #31
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Default Re: IMR batteries

rhd,

Being very rude, insulting, and blackmailing people will not give you any knowledge.

I posted very interesting video, and it is very important that is not made by me.

I also posted link to pdf file from Panasonic.

I have no need to defend Panasonic.


Cheers

Last edited by Brenner; 01-08-2012 at 09:32 PM. Reason: first line
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:36 PM #32
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Default Re: IMR batteries

Brenner: You're full of it

I put forward a very basic/simple question: What happens to 22W of power, if it isn't converted into heat? Where does it go?

If you weren't just making stuff up, and had an answer, you could have posted it in one sentence (heck, probably in a few words). You didn't. You wrote another 5 lines, and directed us back to videos, etc.

Don't defend Panasonic, defend your own claim. You can't, or you would have.
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