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Old 05-30-2012, 02:21 AM #753
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

I actually totally agree with Jerry too Anyone who I've talked to about this driver should be able to attest to the fact that I've been very conservative about pushing, promoting, or making any claims about it. It blows my mind that the design has been out there for almost 4 months and there have been over 750 posts about it in this thread alone, yet nobody besides myself (with my poor-man's $100 DSD Nano "scope"), has scoped it.

Ben and I did a lot of testing and revision of this driver, as much as the two of us could. But that doesn't mean it's enough. I don't believe there's a problem with the design. I've run both diodes (the PL450 and 12x diodes) on the same schematic (not the exact same PCB) without any indication of trouble. So for me, I'm skeptical of the claims that Ryan and a few others have put forward; not because I think "there couldn't possibly be a problem with the design", but because their experience runs counter to my own experience.

That said, a thought has just popped into my mind:

I'll preface by saying that without the schematic in front of me right now, it's really difficult for me to visualize whether I'm shooting completely into left field or not with this theory.

I've been trying to think of things that I do when building with these drivers that others might not, or anything that would make my use of the Open Driver different that of the members who've had trouble. The obvious differences have already been mentioned (I don't use the mosfet, I used 22uF caps, etc)

But one of the things I always do before attaching a diode to any driver, is short all of the capacitors individually. I used to discharge caps simply shorting the diode's +/- pads on the driver. Then at some stage, not with this driver, but with some other driver, I gave myself the impression that I really ought to start shorting each capacitor individually. It's a habit that has stuck. I use a small piece of solder to bridge both contacts on each capacitor individually.

From memory (I don't have the Open/Ben Boost schematic in front of me), if you bridge the LD +/- pads on the driver, it should short the output capacitor and the LD +/- capacitor (the other "output capacitor"). That's two of three taken care of. But I'm wondering if it might not be that case that shorting the LD +/- pads when the driver just passively sitting there, doesn't actually short the C1 input cap. Again, someone with the schematic in front of them should think that one through, as well as think through whether an unshorted C1 input cap would even pose a problem for the LD.


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Last edited by rhd; 05-30-2012 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:34 AM #754
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

If the input cap isn't shorted, it shouldn't pose any threat whatsoever to the diode.

Because the cap is still before the driver, any "spike" of any sort would be handled by the driver, and the remaining voltage would be squished out of the capacitor that's safe for the diode.

Kind of like how an input cap on an LM317 driver doesn't harm the diode. You could have a massive 1000000 uF cap bank hooked up to the driver, as long as it's before it, it'll regulate it as needed.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:44 AM #755
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Gosh, you might be right. Without Eagle up and running, it's hard for me to picture the circuit. Except that I think the input cap isn't really "before" the driver with this setup, is it? Or at least, it's not solely "before" the IC.

I think the input cap on that circuit could spike through the inductor & shottky, then through the diode, and back to ground through the set resistor (or something like that) without ever encountering the IC.

In other words, I think an undischarged input cap probably would be a problem here.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:50 AM #756
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

That does't make sense though. I do understand what you're saying regarding the path through the inductor and schottky...

But think about it. The capacitor would be charged to the input voltage. (i.e. not enough to overcome the vf of the diode)

That and if what you say is true then the battery is effectively hooked straight up to the diode, but we know that's not true.

Because the IC still has voltage from the cap as well, it'll do its duty until the voltage drops below what it can take. It'll regulate it no matter what. Try to think of the cap as an auxilary battery in a way. It can just be completely emptied though. :P
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:54 AM #757
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

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Ok. Well it wasn't. Did you think I was capturing you with the phrase "vet" ? or the phrase "new hobbyist" ? I'm still not really sure where you thought you fit in to that comment of mine.
Definitely "new hobbyist." I certainly don't consider myself a vet and I'm pretty sure no one else does either.

Quote:
Regardless, I wasn't talking about you. I hadn't even seen your name on that other thread (though I now see that you jumped in on the 2nd or 3rd page).
I think that I must have used some poor wording at some point because I have definitely given you the wrong impression. I never thought you were directing anything at me. I just thought I happened to fit into the category. I'm a "very late 2011 kid" so I really don't think that anyone considers me a vet other than squeaking into the vets section of the forum - which I have laid very low in until I feel more "like a vet."

But I never thought you were singling me out, I was just saying that I felt like you were jumping on the "it must be the new guys making some mistake" bandwagon and not giving a fair consideration to the possibility that there is a spike or something about this driver that doesn't get along well with 405's for some reason.

In no way do I mean that as any sort of finger pointing. I'm just saying that I think it is honestly reasonable to take a look at this from a troubleshooting point of view rather than dismissing it as new builders.

I also think your points about open source are very valid. In fact, I've been very vocal about that and pointed out that you and Ben weren't selling this thing and it was something you guys did to help the hobby, not for profit. (Not that there is anything wrong with that!)

Anyway, I completely agree that this is precisely what open source is supposed to be about. If people start building these commercially and there is a problem, then you cannot blame the people who put it out there. It was put out to be tinkered with, tested and if there are any bugs, then to have those bugs worked out. I don't think anyone could argue any differently.

My only point in entering this conversation was to try and bring some balance into the whole view. (Which I apparently did not do!) I was just saying, "hey, it does kind of look like there might be a gotcha that wasn't found in the initial testing that is occurring." There might NOT be anything, but I would hate to go into troubleshooting without you and Ben offering input.

That was all I was trying to do and I'm sorry if I came across otherwise.

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Old 05-30-2012, 03:00 AM #758
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

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Originally Posted by Le Quack View Post
That does't make sense though. I do understand what you're saying regarding the path through the inductor and schottky...

But think about it. The capacitor would be charged to the input voltage. (i.e. not enough to overcome the vf of the diode)

That and if what you say is true then the battery is effectively hooked straight up to the diode, but we know that's not true.

Because the IC still has voltage from the cap as well, it'll do its duty until the voltage drops below what it can take. It'll regulate it no matter what. Try to think of the cap as an auxilary battery in a way. It can just be completely emptied though. :P
You're probably right.

Do caps ever/often/typically have charge in them when new? I typically put my caps on a metal surface before reflowing, so I've never given any thought to that.
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:02 AM #759
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Alright guys.

Here is a video i did to show my drivers are working fine with blu-ray.

Both my drivers came from "rhd". The ONLY THING i did to them was switch out the sensing resistor since Original i had him send me 2 for a Specific low Voltage build I wanted to do. They where set to ~850mA each for a 3v aplication i needed.


Here is Just a Short and Straight to the Point video of having "NO PROBLEMS" at startup or when Increasing the voltage.

I did more testing off camera and i can say there is NO problem with my drivers that came from rhd.

I tested BOTH driver but only show 1 in the video. SO your just going to have to take my word for the other one.

Iam Not feeling good for the past few days so yeah...



I Have No clue what problems you guys are having but the drivers i received from rhd work Great.

I want to mention another thing. I seen some of you guys where buying some Cheap a$$ caps from ebay or wherever the places where. I have read many times that there are FAKE Caps out there. Iam not saying that this is the Case here but keep that in mind. Also buying these Caps from these type of places you dont even know what your getting. I would not trust any place other then a Know distributor for something like that. Resistors are a different store.

Even the Main IC. There is Clowns Out there that might work but are not the same.

I Really have not been fallowing this thread Just recently since Ive been reading these problems. I had to test for myself. I see NO Problem with the ones i received from rhd. They are going to get switched back to 850mA.

I did this test only to show my results from THe driver's that i received from Him. The Only thing i could have though of was if the voltage spiked then that would make the currant boost up higher if the input voltage became greater then the diode/Load. All boost drivers will shot up in currant if you do this since they are not BUCK too.

I just dont see how a 4.2v cell can do that for a blu-ray. Hell even a 445nm diode.

Not sure what else to say.
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:36 AM #760
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
You're probably right.

Do caps ever/often/typically have charge in them when new? I typically put my caps on a metal surface before reflowing, so I've never given any thought to that.
I do think I remember reading something about caps being charged or not charged when shipped. Something to do with testing, and there was some article about it... Have no idea where it is now. Though, that wouldn't matter anyway, unless they're like, right off of the assembly line capacitors.

I'm willing to bet that they've been sitting around for some time, so even if they did have voltage it'd leak away due to the ESR of the cap.

Also note, that I haven't had any issues with my 405 nm either. Running at 447 mA, it works fine, and has worked fine for me as long as I've had it (which has been about...2 -3 weeks?) Though, it is a BDR-205, and not the other sleds everyone else gets. The driver I hand assembled myself, with components from Tsteele who got them from Cilegray, and Newark. No fake caps there... yet Tsteele still had issues with his. I'd just like to help figure out the problem (if there's one!)

Regarding your video Lazeerer, that looks like a pretty efficient diode. Or is that just because you're using a 405 G 1 lens? Another thing to consider is that the readout for those power supplies, or any sort of digital multimeter has a refresh rate...and a slow one at that. Any spikes would NOT be evident at all on one, and can only be seen on an oscilloscope.
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:53 AM #761
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Quack View Post
I do think I remember reading something about caps being charged or not charged when shipped. Something to do with testing, and there was some article about it... Have no idea where it is now. Though, that wouldn't matter anyway, unless they're like, right off of the assembly line capacitors.

I'm willing to bet that they've been sitting around for some time, so even if they did have voltage it'd leak away due to the ESR of the cap.

Also note, that I haven't had any issues with my 405 nm either. Running at 447 mA, it works fine, and has worked fine for me as long as I've had it (which has been about...2 -3 weeks?) Though, it is a BDR-205, and not the other sleds everyone else gets. The driver I hand assembled myself, with components from Tsteele who got them from Cilegray, and Newark. No fake caps there... yet Tsteele still had issues with his. I'd just like to help figure out the problem (if there's one!)

Just to keep the data unmuddled, the benboost I was using that wiped three diodes was from Moh. I got it long before I got the components to build my own. I do think Moh was using mouser y5v 10uF caps which could be a problem?

He sent me this shopping cart...

https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManage...sID=4c9f11e8d7

Hmm, I just read back through this thread and it looks like Moh may have gotten some of these too...

chip Value Capacitor 0805Y106M 10UF 16V 100PCS SMD | eBay

Furthermore, Cilegray did too! The plot thickens...

I don't know which ones he used in the Benboosts. Neither look great...

Le Quack, The caps I sent you were the good kemet x7r caps and were 22uF/16v - right?
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Quack View Post
I do think I remember reading something about caps being charged or not charged when shipped. Something to do with testing, and there was some article about it... Have no idea where it is now. Though, that wouldn't matter anyway, unless they're like, right off of the assembly line capacitors.

I'm willing to bet that they've been sitting around for some time, so even if they did have voltage it'd leak away due to the ESR of the cap.

Also note, that I haven't had any issues with my 405 nm either. Running at 447 mA, it works fine, and has worked fine for me as long as I've had it (which has been about...2 -3 weeks?) Though, it is a BDR-205, and not the other sleds everyone else gets. The driver I hand assembled myself, with components from Tsteele who got them from Cilegray, and Newark. No fake caps there... yet Tsteele still had issues with his. I'd just like to help figure out the problem (if there's one!)

Regarding your video Lazeerer, that looks like a pretty efficient diode. Or is that just because you're using a 405 G 1 lens? Another thing to consider is that the readout for those power supplies, or any sort of digital multimeter has a refresh rate...and a slow one at that. Any spikes would NOT be evident at all on one, and can only be seen on an oscilloscope.
In the Video i was Using a S06J. Same as Others. Naaaa Not efficient its Average. Thats with a G1 lens.

Yes Of course It would not show any precise spikes but my diode should have not survived If I was having the same problem as others. Others say they LED at Startup and If there was a Spike in the Voltage I show that i turn it up to 4.7v and the LPM was still reading the same in power which means there was no Increase in Currant even with a Higher voltage. Even a 5mA shift in currant would show on my LPM and there was nothing. That would not be enough to kill a 12x. SO for this "Spike" to be killing a 12x it would have to be shooting above 700mA and I just dont see that happening for BLu-Ray if the Caps are the same as mine. If anything it would sag for blu-ray due to the higher Forward Voltage.

Though like i said if the Caps are not good on the ones that are killing all these diodes then that might be the problem. I got to read back in this thread to catch up.

Since these 2 Driver i tested came from rhd and worked fine then obviously there is either some kind of user error or something wrong with parts.


Something is Killing the diodes. However I dont think it has anything to do with the driver or its design or circuit. Period.

Cheap Caps Scare me.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:59 AM #763
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

All my caps came from digi.. I got my Phobos today... ordered a bunch of 22Uf caps I never took the shoring the caps seariously I was told my test load would drain the caps.. I still shorted the leads out anyway's as a procedure but didnt think there could be a cap still charged..

I'm not the guy complaining.. about stuff yet... I still think this is fine... No one has answered my Question on how little the current output can be? will the IC regulate low current? I know when this thread started it went up to 1800ma then alot was cut out. because the drivers got to HOT! but did anyone check if they would work for the 100ma- diodes or do they even exist..
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:26 AM #764
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Kizdawg

you can set the current as low as 25mA I think according to the datasheet IT CAN! Just use a 1ohm or 1.15ohm set resistor it should give you close to 20mA output current

and rhd you have done well using 22uF caps (X5R I presume?)

I think that would be what everyone is missing here. Those 22uF caps will make A WHOLE LOTTA difference compared to the original 10uF Y5V caps.

I suggest everyone replace the caps with 22uF X5R or 22uF X7R.
I think the original part list and schematic should be updated too.

Better Caps, Scope test (with and without the better caps)
These are the things needed to be done.

Last edited by foulmist; 05-30-2012 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:53 AM #765
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

I agree and RHD said he used them in all his builds.. so I'm a changin...
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:27 AM #766
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by foulmist View Post
and rhd you have done well using 22uF caps (X5R I presume?)

I think that would be what everyone is missing here. Those 22uF caps will make A WHOLE LOTTA difference compared to the original 10uF Y5V caps.

I suggest everyone replace the caps with 22uF X5R or 22uF X7R.
I think the original part list and schematic should be updated too.
Yep, I've done well using 22uF caps.

It's funny, this isn't a "new" thing. Both Ben and I have mentioned all along that we initially used 22uF caps, but that 10uF worked out well when the drivers were used with typical 445 KasEO diodes. That's why 10uF caps were put on the parts list.

But I know that we've both, many times since that thread opened, commented that we still used or recommended 22uF caps. This *might* be one of those things that people more engaged in the process would have caught. Granted, it's not in the OP, and maybe that was our mistake. But we've not been shy about the fact that 22uF was a more desirable cap choice, and I think anyone who is really following the project is probably aware of this:
FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!
FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!
FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!
FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizdawg View Post
I agree and RHD said he used them in all his builds.. so I'm a changin...
Not all, but virtually all, yep. I mean, I don't use boost drivers in many builds to begin with, so that comment is a bit inaccurate. But when I re-flow a boost driver, I tend to stick with the best components available. I'm a control freak like that. It's part of the reason that I just plain won't trust a laser build to someone else's driver (with the exception of the X-Drive).
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:02 PM #767
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

@ RHD...

BTW... an input Cap across the input power lines
on a driver would act as a battery and drain any
potential it had into the driver when the input
power source is removed.

I wouldn't worry about discharging the input caps.
Output caps must be discharged before connecting
an LD.


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Old 05-30-2012, 01:50 PM #768
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Default Re: FREE DIY open source BOOST driver!!! Tested & working!!

I think it should be put in the op parts list too. I did look arround a bit for parts but I must have missed the part about using the 22Uf caps. and just made my parts list up from the op except for the 3410. Easy to miss for someone just coming into the thread and skimming the 750+ posts..
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