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View Poll Results: members only?? daguin?
YES MEMBERS ONLY! 87 76.99%
NO ACCESSIBLE FOR ALL SPIDERS, BOTS, GUESTS, NEWS JOURNALISTS.... ETC 26 23.01%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-20-2010, 01:22 AM #49
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

I'm curious to see when or if Avery will make it members only. If you're interested in lasers then sign up and introduce yourself. No need to talk if you don't want to. No obligation to make conversation but the person should know about safety first and I think it would be a good standard to do what everyone has been doing for new members that show up by linking safety threads and starting-guides



Last edited by Crazy Jay; 06-20-2010 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 06-20-2010, 05:22 PM #50
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

bump

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Old 06-21-2010, 10:19 AM #51
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

If we're going to start censoring information on some specific diode of a specific wavelength just because that diode happens to be the highest powered one right now, we might as well just close the whole forum down.

Where does it really end?

Is this 445nm laser really any less dangerous than high powered DVD-ripped-diode burners in the big picture? A Bluray? A greenie? They're all out there. They're getting more powerful week by week. Hell, the site even advertises those lasers and the Chinese sites that misrepresent what they export to you. And does anyone even realistically think that some members-only "club" is going to prevent people from accessing this forum? From creating and abusing lasers? From liability? Is some forum "disclaimer" and "TOS" going to really save anybody's butt? Sure, it's a nice gateway notice to put up, but is anyone really going to read it? Do you read the EULAs of programs you install that you "agree" to?

These are all extremely lame and weak measures that will not accomplish anything useful. The the genie has already left the bottle, and delisting from google's index will not put it back. What those measures might be responsible for is a decline of this community and the hobby in general as people and information dries up. Think about how much you learned from someone teaching someone else something new. If we're all acting like we're thoughtcriminals we'll never help anyone new.

Even just "hiding" the BST or GB sections: how would you even have a "group buy" without groups of people to purchase things? More than half the people who join the group buys I have never even seen before. Great, they're getting into the hobby. It was through CandlePowerForums that I got my first > Class 3a laser, as a new member, as part of a group buy. Now I'm writing something like this on a laser forum.

If you're that scared to participate on this forum in the open, you might as well quit now. I know that I'll delete my account if this site reduces its members to having to slink around like some pedophile on an underground messageboard. It'll be all over anyway.
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:00 PM #52
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

Did WL really have to sell that laser at 1W, you know at 300mW it would still be a beast w/ nice beam and burning capabilities......but yeah information should be free for anyone.
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Old 06-21-2010, 05:40 PM #53
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic-Badger View Post
If we're going to start censoring information on some specific diode of a specific wavelength just because that diode happens to be the highest powered one right now, we might as well just close the whole forum down.

Where does it really end?

Is this 445nm laser really any less dangerous than high powered DVD-ripped-diode burners in the big picture? A Bluray? A greenie? They're all out there. They're getting more powerful week by week. Hell, the site even advertises those lasers and the Chinese sites that misrepresent what they export to you. And does anyone even realistically think that some members-only "club" is going to prevent people from accessing this forum? From creating and abusing lasers? From liability? Is some forum "disclaimer" and "TOS" going to really save anybody's butt? Sure, it's a nice gateway notice to put up, but is anyone really going to read it? Do you read the EULAs of programs you install that you "agree" to?

These are all extremely lame and weak measures that will not accomplish anything useful. The the genie has already left the bottle, and delisting from google's index will not put it back. What those measures might be responsible for is a decline of this community and the hobby in general as people and information dries up. Think about how much you learned from someone teaching someone else something new. If we're all acting like we're thoughtcriminals we'll never help anyone new.

Even just "hiding" the BST or GB sections: how would you even have a "group buy" without groups of people to purchase things? More than half the people who join the group buys I have never even seen before. Great, they're getting into the hobby. It was through CandlePowerForums that I got my first > Class 3a laser, as a new member, as part of a group buy. Now I'm writing something like this on a laser forum.

If you're that scared to participate on this forum in the open, you might as well quit now. I know that I'll delete my account if this site reduces its members to having to slink around like some pedophile on an underground messageboard. It'll be all over anyway.

It's a tough call, no doubt. Ordinarily I'm all for free sharing of information, but this development has grown to very large proportions, and certain Chinese manufacturers are selling class 4 lasers to any and everyone dirt cheap with labels such as "weapon" and "light saber" etc. This is irresponsible and does present a real threat to the hobby.. these companies act without regard for the hobbyist. It would be best if the only way one could obtain a class 4 pointer was if they build it themselves. A teenager who spent their allowance money and is now waving a class 4 laser around is a recipe for disaster since they will likely not have any real grasp of the danger involved. I can't tell you how many times I've been at the club and I see people waving high-powered pointers around hitting people in the head, eyes, etc. It's only a matter of time before these 1W blues make it to nightclubs, concerts, etc. So many people here believe that there is no significant increase in danger from class 3b to class 4, but that's incorrect. The amount of time that it takes to do damage decreases significantly as power increases. Therein lies the danger. A quick flash from a reflection and damage is done.

On the other hand, I don't want to see this cat back in the bag. I love the idea of being able to get a lifetime supply of blue for next to nothing. The only issue is the one just discussed: the potential implications for the rest of the hobby should injuries get out of hand. The fact that these lasers will be easy to obtain cheaply, and ready built, only amplifies the risk.

It's just what to do about it that I can't answer.
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Last edited by ElektroFreak; 06-21-2010 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 06-22-2010, 01:58 AM #54
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
It's a tough call, no doubt. Ordinarily I'm all for free sharing of information, but this development has grown to very large proportions, and certain Chinese manufacturers are selling class 4 lasers to any and everyone dirt cheap with labels such as "weapon" and "light saber" etc. This is irresponsible and does present a real threat to the hobby.. these companies act without regard for the hobbyist. It would be best if the only way one could obtain a class 4 pointer was if they build it themselves.
What do Chinese manufacturers selling high powered lasers for cheap have to do with information hiding on the forum? Does it somehow make the problem go away? Does it really disassociate this site from high powered lasers?

Statements like "it would be best if the only way one could obtain a class 4 pointer was if they build it themselves" are hypocritical in this context. On one hand you want this information hidden, on the other you want it to be the only means to make these lasers. What is it then? And does it have any bearing at all on whether 3rd party manufacturers from China make these lasers available?

Quote:
A teenager who spent their allowance money and is now waving a class 4 laser around is a recipe for disaster since they will likely not have any real grasp of the danger involved. I can't tell you how many times I've been at the club and I see people waving high-powered pointers around hitting people in the head, eyes, etc. It's only a matter of time before these 1W blues make it to nightclubs, concerts, etc.
But again, what does this have to do with hiding the forum? Does a DIY laser community bear the blame for idiots using pre-made lasers in clubs or whatnot? Wouldn't that blame rest on the sources that provided them with the lasers? Even if blame is placed on this DIY community, would it even matter if this forum were "hidden"? I don't think it defers responsibility, and if anything, it only validates the idea that were doing something illegal and dangerous.

Quote:
So many people here believe that there is no significant increase in danger from class 3b to class 4, but that's incorrect. The amount of time that it takes to do damage decreases significantly as power increases. Therein lies the danger. A quick flash from a reflection and damage is done.
Is that really any different than with a Class 3b laser? I don't think so. We're just talking numbers here, small differences. It's like arguing that a smaller caliber gun is less dangerous in the hands of an idiot than a higher caliber gun. They're both dangerous, and the same regulations would/should be applied to both.

Likewise, it would be naive to believe that only because there are class 4 lasers available instead of class 3b lasers, that the danger threshold has been surpassed. Any laser > Class 3a should not be used in public without goggles or certified safety standards (like with laser shows). It doesn't matter if the laser is class 3 or class 4; they're both going to cause permanent eye damage and burns if abused. Even worse is if people are lured into the false notion that their Class 3b is somehow "safer" to be used in public without safety measures. It's certainly not.

So I just don't buy this whole argument that only now things have changed. The only thing that has really changed is that Wicked Lasers has generated a lot of publicity about their laser. If that is the real problem, the only real solution is to stop the sale of such complete lasers on this site (ads, shops, etc.) until things have died down, but even that really isn't going to change things.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:39 AM #55
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

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Originally Posted by landerfha View Post
They'll have found out about the Arctic from big news sites... but here they can actually find decent safety information. Making it viewable to members only is a terrible idea that could even be called irresponsible. It's not like it even effects anything, if someone wants to spam or say something idiotic they'll be making an account anyway.
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I hadn't planned on making an account until I saw this thread.

I have never gotten into lasers prior to the Arctic but always wanted to. I ordered one out of the fear that they'd be eventually banned. I then set about looking for info on how to use it safely. This forum was the ONLY place I could find decent safety info on. To close that information off to others would be a crying shame and frankly could endanger some people.

Before reading some of the threads here I had no idea how to shop for safety glasses, what OD4+ meant, or even that cheap green lasers can emit IR. Now I feel confident that I will be able to use the Arctic safely and I'm interested in other laser projects. Withholding information won't make anyone safer, it won't stop people from ordering the Arctic, and it won't stop idiots from hurting themselves or others. What it will do is remove a resource for those who want to be responsible and safe and leave them guessing.


Edited to add:

The argument that information on where to source diodes etc... should be restricted is also bothersome. If someone wants to build their own and can't find decent sources sooner or later they will turn to eBay and dodgy Chinese sellers. This creates a potential safety issue. Obviously whoever runs the board should run it the way they want to. However from someone on the outside looking in it doesn't make much sense to me to hide the forum for the reasons stated.

Last edited by Teknorat; 06-22-2010 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:06 PM #56
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

it should not be visible . but maybe nothing should be visible but safety ..
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Old 06-25-2010, 08:11 PM #57
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Default Re: should 445 subforum only be accessable for "members only"?

We don't want kids getting involved with these 445nm diodes because of their power and so the FDA or something like that can not see what we're talking about. So the 445nm subforum should be for members only.
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