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Old 09-01-2011, 07:23 PM #1
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Smile My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Hello,

Today I'm happy because I finished making my first laser. This follows my rhd command of a module Mosquito, which I then sought to integrate.
So I ordered one on DealExtreme model flashlight UltraFire U4-MCU Cree, and then I made ​​a heatsink to my work. I also ordered on ebay, here in France, CR123 batteries of 2000mAh GTL, to power the beast ...
Here are some pictures of my realization, be indulgent ...
Later I will try to take pictures in operation and to compare with my rifle 1W of Lazerer
Attached Thumbnails
My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0157.jpg   My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0159.jpg   My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0160.jpg   My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0162.jpg   My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0163.jpg  

My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0165.jpg   My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0166.jpg   My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445-imag0169.jpg  


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Old 09-01-2011, 07:29 PM #2
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

How fast does it heat up/Whats the duty cycle on it?
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:39 PM #3
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARGLaser View Post
How fast does it heat up/Whats the duty cycle on it?
I have not done much testing, but I have noticed that it heats up quickly! I measured the current is about 1.7 A with the batteries fully charged
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:34 AM #4
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Question Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

My first impression was a little disappointed, because compared to my rifle 1W Lazerer, it seems less powerful.
Well I have no LPM to measure the output power and to be sure, but by comparing the brightness of the beam and spot I think it's lower. The power to burn also seems lower.
I tried with 2 CR123 batteries of 2000mAh 3.6V, the current is about 1.5 A. With 2 3.7V 1000 mAh battery current is about 1.7 A and unloaded quickly. Maybe the batteries are not powerful enough?
With a single battery is not light.

Maybe the batteries are not powerful enough?
On my rifle, the current is approximately 1A whatever the batteries.
I'll maybe try to feed it with a stabilized power laboratory to see..
Like to know what is the ideal power supply for this module?

And now after about 30 seconds the brightness down sharply to almost extinct, and the heatsink is not hot... I'm very disappointed....

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Old 09-02-2011, 06:46 PM #5
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Question Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Nobody has idea? Is that the power loss may come from a temperature problem?
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:54 PM #6
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Hey,

It shouldn't light with just a single cell. With two CR123s however, it should be fairly good.

My only concern is the batteries themselves. There are no lithium-ion CR123s that can provide 2,000 mAh of capacity. Most batteries lie, but that's a pretty BIG lie (by the battery maker, not by you ). This leaves me wondering whether they're 600mAh, or 300mAh, or 750mAh, etc.

If the batteries are really cruddy, and if you've measured the current incorrectly (IE, not inline with the actual load of the mosquito hooked up in operation, then I can see a possibility that you're just not providing enough current from the batteries. Give the lab supply a shot (with the module still heatsinked of course).

Could you clarify what is meant by "unloaded quickly" ?

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Old 09-02-2011, 07:14 PM #7
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Thank's for your help,

Well, i try first with this batteries i bought specialy : 2 Piles Rechargeable CR123A LR123A 3.6V 2000mAh GTL | eBay
I have also this one (sold with my Lazerer rifle 1W) : 2 Batteries Rechargeables CR123A LR123A 3.7V 1000mAh | eBay
For measure the current i made directly by removing the back of the flashlight and putting the ampere meter in series.
With 1000 mAh 3,7 V batteries, they lose their charge quickly, maybe 10 or 15 min.
But the other problem i've noted is after about 30,40 seconds of ignition, all of a sudden brightness drop off sharply and almost. I stop, I wait a while and then I turn back, the brightness is good and the problem starts again after 30, 40 s.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:56 PM #8
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

A few thoughts for you:

- The capacity problems (quick loss of charge) is a product of those batteries not being very good (that may even be an understatement). GTL batteries are notoriously poor, and ANY CR123A that claims to be 2,000 mAh is outright preposterous. In fact, I believe even 1,000 mAh from a 16340 form factor exceeds the energy density capabilities of lithium-ion (and if it doesn't, it's very very close). So the quick draining is a battery quality issue.

- The 30 or 40 second brightness drop is the IC on the driver hitting a temperature threshold and limiting current to avoid overheating. Normally outside of a host, natural air flow is enough to give these ICs 2+ minutes of runtime before the temperature protection kicks in. Depending on your heatsink and host dimensions, this 2+ minute figure can be increased or decreased based on the amount of heat your setup can dissipate from the IC versus the natural air environment in which I test them to 2+ minutes. Also, if you're waiting say 5 minutes between testing, the IC won't totally cool, so that runtime figure will not make it's way all the way back to what it would have been from a cold start.

- Regarding the brightness, it's hard to draw any conclusions until you have some LPM stats for us to look at. If you're comparing the module running at 1.5A to your 1W lazerer, it's possible that you had bad efficiency luck on your 1.5A module, and perhaps got a 1W lazerer that is came in a bit overspec. I really would just be speculating without some LPM figures.

----

That said, I may re-think the way I sell these modules in the future. I've noticed that a lot of people expect 1.7 A to translate into 1.7 W. It sometimes does, sometimes doesn't. Buying diodes, we never expect any particular efficiency, it's luck of the draw. However, I've noticed that when buying these as modules, there seems to be some sort of expectation amongst buyers that the diode is an efficient one. The diodes I use in these modules are no more or less random that the diodes that you'd buy individually. In fact, all of the modules I've sold thus far are using diodes from an array I purchased from Yobresal. Some are efficient, some aren't, some are average, etc.

I think that what I may do in the future is stop selling these modules assembled, and merely sell everything in a complete form minus the attachment of resistors, and minus the attachment of the diode (but would include both with the kit). That way, individuals can set their own current, and be responsible for the output. It's also the case that about 1 in 10 diodes dies at the 1.7A current range. When I put the modules together myself, this death is absorbed by me. I've been happy to do this so far, but it's starting to get to be a bit much when buyers are also expecting a certain high efficiency level.

Hey Patoche91, those last two paragraphs were _not_ aimed in your direction - they were just some thoughts I've been having for the last few days, so I thought I'd toss them into this write-up
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Last edited by rhd; 09-02-2011 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:48 AM #9
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Post Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

First it's true that seeing the characteristics of the module, like the current, we do believe that the power is 1.7 W, and certainly I think the other buyers also believes.
Now I have nothing against you at any time I say that your product is not as good as one might think, I just made ​​findings that I wanted to understand.
CR123 batteries are I may be not actually good, so I did a test with two batteries of 3800 mAh Ultrafire 18650 that have a high capacity and I get exactly the same results. With what you told me now I know that there is a protection which limits the current in case of overheating to protect the diode I think. and so the sharp drop in power after 30, 40 s.
The heatsink that I made is perhaps not suited to dissipate heat, and the contact between the module and the heatsink Aixiz is perhaps not perfect (I made a 12mm hole for dimension of 11.9 mm module). I also noticed a rapid heating of the heatsink, and I also coated the driver of electrical tape to avoid problems of short circuit, but maybe it also does not help the cooling.
The power of my rifle is 1014 mW, I ordered a certicate of power, and by different test, especially burning test, it is more efficient ....
Now I know in lots of diodes there are more powerful than the others, it is a lottery I feel, and maybe I have not had any luck .. .
Perhaps as a suggestion I could give you would be to test each module before being sent as is with Lazer, a certificate of power, and provide the information beforehand. It's just a suggestion
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:20 PM #10
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Hey,

Interesting suggestion. I actually have a huge *issue* with the way Lazerer sells their "power certificates". I feel like if you're selling something as a "1W", you should be guaranteeing it as a 1W, without anyone paying for that guarantee as a "extra".

At the same time, I understand the value of a power certificate, especially for those without an LPM. Here's my central dilemma with these modules:
  1. At the $75 I sell them for on LPF, I make almost no profit. Anyone can do the math and figure out roughly what my margin is. It's not very much at the $75 LPF price.

  2. I have to "amortize" across all modules, the cost of about 1 in 10 diodes that dies at the 1,760mA current range as an expense. Normally a builder incurs the expense of a diode that won't live at their desired current level. When the module is being pre-built and tested on my end, it's the module seller that incurs this expense.

  3. If I tested each module for power output, not only would the time and complexity of keeping each module straight and sorted be a deal killer (time killer), but it would also imply that less efficient diodes needed to be binned and sold separately, or somehow used elsewhere, which again creates a further expense to amortize across all modules.
Now to put this all in perspective, I offer these on LPF at $75, and sell 1 to 2 per week and make essentially not enough money to cover my time. I sell them on eBay, for $85, and sell about 1 to 2 per day, and the transactions are fast, easy, and come with positive feedback. Oddly, it's more hassle to sell on LPF, which is the reverse of what I expected.

In response to the suggestions above however, I'm going to change the module going forward. It's just not worth selling these at 1.76A when you (and everyone else) are expecting to always get an efficient module doing 1.7W. Going forward, I'm going to sell them set at 1666 mA, and as "1W guarantee" modules. Then, they'll pretty much always be overspec when supplied by a decent cell.
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:26 PM #11
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Oh also - forgot to address this. The black tape over the IC is definitely contributing to the short IC run time before thermal limiting kicks in. Essentially you're blocking off the air that might otherwise cool the IC, and the tape is acting as an insulator keeping the heat in.
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:50 PM #12
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Very nice build and host !
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:06 PM #13
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

I think these modules look good! I would like to try one out... (ordering now)

I think that you can easily call them 1.4 to 1.5 Watt modules at that current. (normal diode efficiency)

I might add that if using a 405-G-1 glass lens, you could reach 1.6 to 1.7 Watts, depending on diode efficiency.

This is a very reasonable expectation for that current setting.

However, you will need quality batteries (X 2), that can handle the current draw needed. IMR will easily work. And I'm sure that the protected AW cells will also do the job nicely.

Check lighthound.com for those...
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:20 PM #14
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

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Originally Posted by jayrob View Post
I think these modules look good! I would like to try one out... (ordering now)

I think that you can easily call them 1.4 to 1.5 Watt modules at that current. (normal diode efficiency)

I might add that if using a 405-G-1 glass lens, you could reach 1.6 to 1.7 Watts, depending on diode efficiency.

This is a very reasonable expectation for that current setting.

However, you will need quality batteries (X 2), that can handle the current draw needed. IMR will easily work. And I'm sure that the protected AW cells will also do the job nicely.

Check lighthound.com for those...
I *love* my AW IMR 18350s (not a typo), 16340s, 14500s. In a linear build, they're the only cells of their size (especially at the 16340 level) that can reliably supply the current to max out a 445.

For Canadian buyers, if you email Lighthound directly, they'll often offer you a slower (and less expensive) shipping option.
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:22 PM #15
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Default Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
Hey,

Interesting suggestion. I actually have a huge *issue* with the way Lazerer sells their "power certificates". I feel like if you're selling something as a "1W", you should be guaranteeing it as a 1W, without anyone paying for that guarantee as a "extra".

At the same time, I understand the value of a power certificate, especially for those without an LPM. Here's my central dilemma with these modules:
  1. At the $75 I sell them for on LPF, I make almost no profit. Anyone can do the math and figure out roughly what my margin is. It's not very much at the $75 LPF price.

  2. I have to "amortize" across all modules, the cost of about 1 in 10 diodes that dies at the 1,760mA current range as an expense. Normally a builder incurs the expense of a diode that won't live at their desired current level. When the module is being pre-built and tested on my end, it's the module seller that incurs this expense.

  3. If I tested each module for power output, not only would the time and complexity of keeping each module straight and sorted be a deal killer (time killer), but it would also imply that less efficient diodes needed to be binned and sold separately, or somehow used elsewhere, which again creates a further expense to amortize across all modules.
Now to put this all in perspective, I offer these on LPF at $75, and sell 1 to 2 per week and make essentially not enough money to cover my time. I sell them on eBay, for $85, and sell about 1 to 2 per day, and the transactions are fast, easy, and come with positive feedback. Oddly, it's more hassle to sell on LPF, which is the reverse of what I expected.

In response to the suggestions above however, I'm going to change the module going forward. It's just not worth selling these at 1.76A when you (and everyone else) are expecting to always get an efficient module doing 1.7W. Going forward, I'm going to sell them set at 1666 mA, and as "1W guarantee" modules. Then, they'll pretty much always be overspec when supplied by a decent cell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
Oh also - forgot to address this. The black tape over the IC is definitely contributing to the short IC run time before thermal limiting kicks in. Essentially you're blocking off the air that might otherwise cool the IC, and the tape is acting as an insulator keeping the heat in.
I actually understands that test each module independently to check the power to ask the time and there would certainly be a disparity in the results with the actual problems involved in the sale. And indeed you should suporte cost of diodes which die during testing, I suspect well that it is not financially viable, especially since the price at which you sell them is practically at cost. The best is actually to say that at least 1.2 W 1W guaranteed as no question

On the other hand I just change my achievement. As you recommended I removed the electrical tape, and that have better flow in the heatsink, I removed the contact block (washer with the screw), and I welded a spring in place the red wire for positive contact. So the heatsink is not completely closed and the driver is better ventilated. I remade some tests and actually it works better. The ignition time is longer before the light begins to fall.
As for the battery problem, for remove the doubt, on Monday in my work I will test with a stabilized power supply.
I like to have some details on the operation of a driver. It must, as I understand, provide a constant current to the diode. This current is it equal to the current supplied by batteries? For a voltage of 7.2 V and 1.7 A this gives a power consumption 12W for about 1W output, right? Or is that the current consumption is more important if the battery voltage drops? Sorry if I ask questions may be obvious but I still starts in lasers and this is my personal culture.
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Question Re: My first build with module Mosquito All-In-One 445

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrob View Post
I think these modules look good! I would like to try one out... (ordering now)

I think that you can easily call them 1.4 to 1.5 Watt modules at that current. (normal diode efficiency)

I might add that if using a 405-G-1 glass lens, you could reach 1.6 to 1.7 Watts, depending on diode efficiency.

This is a very reasonable expectation for that current setting.

However, you will need quality batteries (X 2), that can handle the current draw needed. IMR will easily work. And I'm sure that the protected AW cells will also do the job nicely.

Check lighthound.com for those...
Thank's for information.
But I have batteries that are labeled 2000 mAh, 3.6 V. So normally they can provide a current of 2A for an hour before being discharged (normally). What is the difference between a battery I bought on ebay (see post above) and one example site Lighthound: Battery Station RCR123a 900mAh Protected Rechargeable Battery
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