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Old 09-14-2011, 12:21 AM #273
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeGT View Post
If I were to sell a laser now ( not having an LPM) I would say it is set to 1.5A and should fall in the 1.2W+ range.
That's EXACTLY the conclusion I came to with the Mosquitoes, which, although I do have an LPM, I'm sure as heck not individually LPMing.

1.6A and should fall in the 1.25W + range.


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Old 09-14-2011, 12:27 AM #274
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
That's EXACTLY the conclusion I came to with the Mosquitoes, which, although I do have an LPM, I'm sure as heck not individually LPMing.

1.6A and should fall in the 1.25W + range.
That's strange....
I calibrate each and every LPM product that leaves the
shop to be sure it is in spec......

Jerry
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:32 AM #275
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Yes, but you advertise your meters to be accurate. RHD advertises his modules as 1.6A. There is a difference.
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Old 09-14-2011, 04:17 AM #276
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
That's strange....
I calibrate each and every LPM product that leaves the
shop to be sure it is in spec......

Jerry
So do I.

I just don't LPM them

There's a difference between testing and LPM'ing. LPM'ing is a subset of testing. I test every Mosquito I sell, twice. Once after construction, and once immediately before shipping. I don't sell the Mosquitoes as "X mW", I sell them with their current listed. Even in my descriptions I give a very wide range that starts with a conservatively low estimate.

My reason is logistics. I don't want to categorize a million different modules, and have to keep track of which goes with which sale. I HAVE a spec that I ensure every module I sell lives up to. That spec is 1,667 mA of current flowing to the diode.

Now truth be told, I do grab my LPM and test the occasional module if I power it up during testing and have some question about the output. Sometimes when I build during a lot of natural sunlight, the first module I test the output of always throws off my senses and seems dim (because of the natural lighting).

But my point (which you've missed), is that if you don't LPM every laser product you're selling (which I effectively don't with the Mosquitoes), then you shouldn't make a power claim to begin with. If you DO make a power claim, you need to make it so conservative that you know your buyer will get something above the spec, always. IE, in my case, I think I describe the Mosquitoes on eBay as falling in a power range that starts at a low end of 1.2W output. For a diode running at 1.7A, that's absolutely safe and honest.
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Old 09-14-2011, 04:17 AM #277
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

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Originally Posted by Pontiacg5 View Post
Yes, but you advertise your meters to be accurate. RHD advertises his modules as 1.6A. There is a difference.
Exactly!
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Old 09-14-2011, 04:30 AM #278
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Right here this sentence says it all !

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
if you don't LPM every laser product you're selling then you shouldn't make a power claim to begin with. If you DO make a power claim, you need to make it so conservative that you know your buyer will get something above the spec, always.
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Old 09-14-2011, 08:44 AM #279
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

I am pretty sure I listed this as 1.8A C8 445 laser $200 and then said $40 for a 405-g-1....
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:51 AM #280
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Just thought I'd toss this into the equation. Where all the money is going, maybe?

First projector help.
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Old 09-14-2011, 11:38 AM #281
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
So do I.

I just don't LPM them

There's a difference between testing and LPM'ing. LPM'ing is a subset of testing. I test every Mosquito I sell, twice. Once after construction, and once immediately before shipping. I don't sell the Mosquitoes as "X mW", I sell them with their current listed. Even in my descriptions I give a very wide range that starts with a conservatively low estimate.

My reason is logistics. I don't want to categorize a million different modules, and have to keep track of which goes with which sale. I HAVE a spec that I ensure every module I sell lives up to. That spec is 1,667 mA of current flowing to the diode.

Now truth be told, I do grab my LPM and test the occasional module if I power it up during testing and have some question about the output. Sometimes when I build during a lot of natural sunlight, the first module I test the output of always throws off my senses and seems dim (because of the natural lighting).

But my point (which you've missed), is that if you don't LPM every laser product you're selling (which I effectively don't with the Mosquitoes), then you shouldn't make a power claim to begin with. If you DO make a power claim, you need to make it so conservative that you know your buyer will get something above the spec, always. IE, in my case, I think I describe the Mosquitoes on eBay as falling in a power range that starts at a low end of 1.2W output. For a diode running at 1.7A, that's absolutely safe and honest.
Ok... I now understand what you are saying...
You're covering your butt by not quoting a minimum Laser output
power and perhaps the uninformed buyer would assume ~1.7W of
Laser output.

In this way if the driver outputs 1.6Amps you're covered as being
truthful whether the LD actually outputs at 1.8Watts or at 0.8Watts...

You are basically selling Drivers as you only quote the Driver's output
specs even though customers think they are buying a Laser...

Then if the LD for some reason outputs <1Watt @ 1667mA the
customer has no recourse... Smart business move...

BTW..
I didn't know that either.... congratulations...you seem to be
a high power seller with many more sales than us...

Good luck with your sales....

EDIT
Just an added thought.....
How can we expect the Chinese Laser sellers to test their Laser's
output that they sell here on the forum if our own members don't
even do it selling to us...
IDK.... maybe it's just me...


Jerry
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:24 PM #282
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

What don't you get about this?? Is it that hard to understand?

He does not say they will produce a certain power output, he gives a low ESTIMATE. If the buyer wants to assume things that were never stated, fine. If they want something LPM'ed they can go buy a premade module from someone else. If he said, like Bhwollen, 1.8W output on 1.8A then I would accuse him of trying to take advantage but he doesn't do that.

Also, he isn't selling a laser, he is selling laser components in a slightly more assembled state than anyone else. Where did you get the idea that he is selling a whole laser?

Trying to compare the chinese selling lasers and RHD's modules is apples to oranges. The Chinese sell complete lasers with an output power as the main selling point. RHD sells modules with a set current at the diode as the selling point. They are very different and you trying to compare them is pretty funny.
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:24 PM #283
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Are you saying that everyone on here needs to start LPM'ing the diodes they sell before they sell them?^^^^ that's what it sounds like to me

Rhd doesn't sell the mosquitos as lasers, they are modules. Nobody expects a fully built laser when ordering a mosquito.

So dtr, Dave , rhd, all need to let their customers know exactly how many mW their diodes and diode combos put out?


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Old 09-14-2011, 12:39 PM #284
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
Ok... I now understand what you are saying...
You're covering your butt by not quoting a minimum Laser output
power and hoping the uninformed buyer would assume ~1.7W of
Laser output.
No, that's not accurate either.

I'm really not hoping the buyer will draw that conclusion. In fact, if you actually look at my listing, I really try the best I can to avoid that presumption - whether explicit or implied. If you look at my LPF listing, I think I say "I'm marketing these as 1.2W + modules"

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
In this way if the driver outputs 1.6Amps you're covered as being
truthful whether the LD actually outputs at 1.8Watts or at 0.8Watts...
(...)

Then if the LD for some reason outputs <1Watt @ 1667mA the
customer has no recourse... Smart business move...
That's not it either Jerry. I think you have some very "shaky" business ethics if you think that's a "smart business move"

You're missing the theme here. Sales aren't about covering your "butt" and making sure a customer "has no recourse", or at least they shouldn't be. Sales, should be about having happy customers. There's one question that goes to the core of these issues we've been discussing in the thread:
"Is the buyer receiving the item that they understood themselves to be purchasing when they decided to go give you money?"

If the answer to that is NO, then you've got a problem. You don't ever want that problem to be the result of what you as a seller said about your product, or even what you "permitted" your customer to incorrectly assume. It doesn't matter if you're relying on a "technicality" that makes your item description correct. If you describe something in a way that is either misleading, or does nothing to correct an erroneous presumption that you know your customers are making, then you as a seller are culpable for the error.

If you sell a 1W laser, but advertise it as having an output in the range of 0.75 to 2.25 W, are you doing something wrong?

Technically, NO you aren't.
1W is within the range you quoted.

Ethically, YES you are.
The buyer thought they were buying a laser with a reasonable possibility of falling in the 0.75 to 2.25 W range. In reality, they received a laser with a reasonable possibility of falling in a much lower range of powers, say 0.75 to 1.25W.

Jerry - I think your perspective on sales/business ethics is totally off the mark. You shouldn't view the sales process as one where you cover your butt technically, so that a customer has no recourse. You should view it as a process where you strive for happy customers, that feel good about a purchase, and feel that what they received lives up to their exceptions about what they were purchasing.

Whether those expectations come from the explicit wording of your listing, or from presumptions they make based on the information you give them, is irrelevant. You always want a customer's expectations to be fulfilled.
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:49 PM #285
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

I'm not comparing... I'm stating facts as I read them on this
Forum... We expect outside sellers to meter their Lasers...

I understand what rhd is doing by quoting only the Driver specs..
I understand that he doesn't want to spend the time to test the
output of each Laser he sends out... That is his choice....

I have no problem with that... I don't need a Laser...
If he was selling only drivers and quoting output current then
it would be clear...

It is just not the way to quantify the Laser's Power.... IMO.

@JakeGT
No... I'm not saying that all sellers MUST Meter the output of
Lasers they sell on the Forum... (Don't go to extremes)
Most sellers on this forum have no issues with their customers...

This is a thread about bwollen...IIRC

But metering Lasers wouldn't hurt for guys like DAoO or even
bwollen...


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Old 09-14-2011, 01:03 PM #286
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
That's not it either Jerry. I think you have some very "shaky" business ethics if you think that's a "smart business move"

Sales, should be about having happy customers. There's one question that goes to the core of these issues we've been discussing in the thread:
"Is the buyer receiving the item that they understood themselves to be purchasing when they decided to go give you money?"

If the answer to that is NO, then you've got a problem. You don't ever want that problem to be the result of what you as a seller said about your product, or even what you "permitted" your customer to incorrectly assume. It doesn't matter if you're relying on a "technicality" that makes your item description correct. If you describe something in a way that is either misleading, or does nothing to correct an erroneous presumption that you know your customers are making, then you as a seller are culpable for the error.

If you sell a 1W laser, but advertise it as having an output in the range of 0.75 to 2.25 W, are you doing something wrong?

Technically, NO you aren't.
1W is within the range you quoted.

Ethically, YES you are.
The buyer thought they were buying a laser with a reasonable possibility of falling in the 0.75 to 2.25 W range. In reality, they received a laser with a reasonable possibility of falling in a much lower range of powers, say 0.75 to 1.25W.

You should view it as a process where you strive for happy customers, that feel good about a purchase, and feel that what they received lives up to their exceptions about what they were purchasing.

Whether those expectations come from the explicit wording of your listing, or from presumptions they make based on the information you give them, is irrelevant. You always want a customer's expectations to be fulfilled.
Sorry for the double post... we were both composing at the
same time..

No that was more sarcastic...

If that WAS your intent I would not think it was a smart
business move.. That would eventually comes back to bite
you on your butt..

I agree 100% with what you said above.... the customer
comes first and I try to be as honest as I can...

I don't want this thread to be about you or I... so I'll let
it drop....


Jerry
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Last edited by lasersbee; 09-14-2011 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Spelling errors
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:16 PM #287
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Things View Post
Just thought I'd toss this into the equation. Where all the money is going, maybe?

First projector help.
not trying to get in the middle of this but hes also selling a green analog module ( i assume was supposed to go in his projector) and i hope that money was going to the repairs of this laser.

just to be clear i'm taking no sides
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:23 PM #288
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Default Re: VERY BAD EXPERIENCE with 'bhwollen'

Where.... on PL...???

Jerry
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1.8mw monster ha!!, 1.8w monster, bad customer service, bwhollen, darkarmyofone, false advertising, high-power-laser, shame on you, theif ripoff conman





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