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Old 05-22-2013, 03:59 AM #1
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Default Do not trust mattyd58!!!

EDIT 22/05/2013: I've reconsidered my position. I've decided, that despite the fact he broke our contract, and has been completely unreasonable, that I WILL pay for return shipping of the unit for testing and repair. It's up to you, now, Matt.


Let's start this off on a fair note:

I sold a laser to a noob member by the name of mattyd58 that did not perform up to specs. Specifically, the driver, according to mattyd58 is, apparently, going into thermal protection and cutting off. This was very distressing to us both. I assured him I would investigate immediately and would be happy to fix it for him. He'd just have to ship it to me.

I immediately, and I mean immediately, shot off an email to the vendor I bought it from, asking for his advice regarding the driver. Right after that, I opened a thread in the veterans' section, again seeking assistance.

The following are transcripts from those first conversations, as taken directly from the emails, with no editing, other than highlighting my offers to fix the problem. This one picks up as he's already brought up a paypal dispute, and now bringing up his "lawyer on retainer":

I will not be banned from PayPal for opening a dispute of this nature. There is a lot of fine print that you may benefit from reading. I had a very similar case and it, as was every other dispute I was forced to open, was decided in my favor. Because of my dyslexia I don't do the actual work, my attorney does. Yes, it is not cost effective. But principle is important and I have her on retainer anyway. I'm not threating you with anything; I'm telling you what I'm going to do. If I didn't want it I would just ask for money back. And if thought you intentionally tried to flim-flam me I would have just opened dispute without contacting you. Now, getting past that, as I said, I'm not interested in going in that direction. I just need assurance that we can come to some mutual satisfaction. One time I took someone's word that they would fix problem. They led me on with excuses till the time expired and I lost my investment. Since then I either come to an immediate reconciliation, or open dispute. Its that simple. If we had done prior business I would not have the concern I do. But that's not the case. All I really know is that I gave you $360.00 and received an item not as advertised. Otherwise the laser works great! Beautiful beam. Craftsmanship is up to par. It just makes no sense that the thing runs for less than a minute. The heat sink is huge! 3 min run time should be no problem at all. And I'd be okay with that. But you have to admit yourself, under 50 sec??? something's wrong. I even tried thermal grease between module & heat sink. It's not the batteries either, I checked. It's the driver. I just want it to work correctly. Like I said, I just want what I paid for. I don't believe you intentionally 'screwed me' but the fact remains that: in good faith, I paid a great deal of money up front. I had confidence in you. What was delivered was an inferior product. Did you actually run it for an extended period? The shipping package was not damaged at all. Lets just resolve the issue and move on.

{QUOTE=scumbagatheist]Matt,
I understand your disappointment, but don't accuse me of screwing you. I immediately sought professional assistance to fix the problem, I've offered to fix the problem and am doing everything possible to do just that. If you read the PayPal user agreement, you will clearly note that the buyer protection does not apply to "custom" items, of which yours is, and was clearly marked as such. Plus, if you so much as mention buying a laser to PayPal, they will not only ban myself, but you as well.
This is a very custom item, and things happen. Perhaps something was knocked loose before shipping. Either way, it's convinced me to also video my future projects for evidence of their quality.

I'm sorry things are not the way either of us expected them to be, but I am doing everything I can to make it right. There's no need to accuse me of screwing you or threatening a PP dispute.

Brian

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd58
No, I won't use it. I have no need for a laser (especially this size!) with that much a limited run time. This purchase was a toss-up between this Saki & Blords Dominator. I really liked the build & just really wanted to give the 'new guy' a chance. Now I think I may have been screwed. I just tested the laser precisely; Timed it with my Invicta chronograph; less than a minute run time. This is ridicules. See attached link to photo: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hrc57rdyg...Comparison.jpg Each of these builds are 445nm >2.7W. The blue one is 3.1W. Both are tiny compared to yours and on both I get 2+ min run time easy. I prefer to handle the difficulties strictly between us. However, the money involved is significant and I will resort to a PayPal dispute if need be. Due to the time sensitivity of my ability to request refund I, respectfully, ask you to come up with a solution. If it's just a battery issue I have no problem buying the type I prefer. Those you included were extra and not really part of the deal anyway. I don't think you did anything with ill intent. But the fact remains that I what I received does not perform as advertised. Please advise. Sleep now check back tomorrow. FYI: laser works great otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scumbagatheist
I want to assure you that the unit did not experience such short times before I shipped it. I only advertised it at >5 minute run times after I tested it at such. I've put in an email to the vendor, and created a thread in the vets' section to get answers.

Feel free to use it in the mean time, as long as you are sure to shut it off the moment it starts blinking. You don't want it overheating and if the driver dies, there's no way I can ask for a replacement (which I am already unlikely to get for free).

Brian


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd58
Yes, I expected a much longer run time with such a large heat sink, My BigBoy's sink is less massive and I can get 5 min easily. (18650's). Well, find out what you can and get back to me. I have >3W lasers much, much smaller than this and still get 2 min easy (16340's). Please let me know. I would not have invested this much money for a laser that can run less than a minute. Overall it is a nice build but for this price I am interested in power & run time not aesthetes. I am not faulting you on the batteries; just pointing out that they may be the problem. I have no issue with buying the Panasonics. I would have anyway. Just don't want to do it if that's not the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scumbagatheist
Matthew,

The heatsink is intentionally long. It is not sitting on the driver at all, but just a millimeter or two above it. The heatsink sets down in the inner bevel of the flashlight head. It only feels like it sits on the driver because of the wires being bent the way they are.
As far as the batteries are concerned, I never promised you top of the line batteries. They are brand new and were the best available at a reasonable price.
It sounds like what you are experiencing is the driver reaching it's thermal cutoff and warning you by blinking and then shutting down.
One way to test whether it is the batteries is to measure the current at the tailcap and watch what happens when the problem occurs.
I will contact the driver vendor and see if I can get an answer from him. If you want, you can ship it back to me and have me test it for you. The driver is heavily heatsinked. It's discouraging to think it's reaching its cutoff so quickly.
If you still do not like the 14500s with the build, it could be converted to a boost-driven unit with a single large, high capacity battery. But, boost drivers tend to run hotter than do buck drivers like the one I used.

Brian


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd58
Hi, I got it together. Overall it looks okay. I have 2 concerns: The heat sink is slightly too long. It fits but does not seat all the way down to the lip due to i's length and position of the driver; the sink is sitting right on top of the driver. This may not be an issue, you tell me. Second, I appreciate the batteries included. But we know these are not top of the line material. The laser works and has a very nice & powerful beam. However, after about 45 seconds it dims & cuts out, or blinks. I've seen this happen due to uncharged or inferior batteries. None of my other lasers use this size battery so I don't have any others to check with. I use the protected Panasonics and I'm about to order the 14500's but they're $10.00 plus apiece. What assurance do I have that the issue I describe is due only to Chinese batteries? Like I said, none of my other lasers use these so if I spend $70.00 for 6 batteries and it's an issue with the laser I'm out even more money. Please advise. FYI: the batteries are fully charged (I have a quality charger and am sure of that). When it dims and cuts out I shut it off for a few seconds and it comes right back on. But then starts blinking or dims out again. Please advise. I got off work a short time ago and sleeping shortly. Want assurance/advice on what to do asap. If laser needs to be returned for repair let me know and I can send it out tomorrow before work. If it's only a battery issue I want to go ahead & order so I can confirm/use the laser. I really like the build and just want to get exactly what was paid for. Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
__________________
Matt


Before we go on, this is the disclaimer/contract that mattyd58 agreed to before purchasing the laser, along with instructions:

Originally Posted by scumbagatheist
Here is the disclaimer:

I, Matthew(details withheld) certify that I:

A) am over 18 years of age.
B) understand that the parts I am purchasing are as is, with no warranty expressed or implied, other than that the parts will work together as a unit upon arrival.
C) understand the dangers involved in using high powered lasers and will always use proper precautions, including the safety eye wear included.
D) will not hold Brian (details withheld) in any way responsible for any use/misuse, or any activities I take part in, or share with others, with these parts, or prosecution resulting from my use of these parts.
E) will not participate in any unlawful activities with these parts.
F) will not hold Brian (details withheld) responsible for any injuries that may occur from any use of these parts, and that I, personally, will be held responsible for any injury caused to any persons or animals by myself or others by use of my equipment.
G) attest that I understand all conditions expressed in this contract and will abide by all of it's provisions.


Signed on this day: __________ Signature: _______________________
Address:

End of contract.

So, since it is VERY against PayPal's policies to buy or sell, or even mention lasers in anyway, do not mention anything about lasers on PayPal. With regard to PayPal, you are purchasing a flashlight parts bundle. You unit will be disassembled and parts packaged separately as such:

Host will contain battery pack. This is per USPS regulations.

Pill (if used) will be also installed in host. Depending on driver configuration used, it may be installed on the pill with the diode attached.

The heatsink will be wrapped separately.

The host head and cap ring may be wrapped separately or attached to host body.

All you will have to do is place the diode into the heatsink and screw it all together. I will give you detailed instructions for that if you need.


So, matty likes to create new email threads, and I couldn't keep up with them all, but by the context here, you will understand the he went specifically against my instructions and slathered the diode heatsink in thermal grease, in an attempt to treat an overheating driver which was not attached to the heatsink, again, no edits but to highlight my offers to fix the problem:

Originally Posted by scumbagatheist
Matt, what you bought was not a kit. You bought a complete laser. All you had to do was put it together and leave it alone. It was shipped that way to you to comply with, as much as possible, FDA rules about selling lasers. You also agreed to the terms before you bought it.

What I want you to do is return the SAiK to me, so that I can repair it for you. I don't understand why you feel like you are due a refund when you specifically went against our agreement, by doing exactly what I told you not to. Now, you've made my job that much harder by having to figure out what you've done to it, on top of the driver issue. You were told not to touch it if there was something wrong. You were told to return it to me, so that it could be repaired.

So, despite you disregarding my specific instructions, I am still willing to repair it for you. Just ship it back to me. I'd advise you also pay for tracking and insurance, as I will NOT be held responsible if something happens to it during transport.

Brian

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd58
Just tell me what you want me to do. All I was trying to do is make it work without having to go through sending in back & forth. I use paste or grease on all modules when securing them to the heat sink. My experience is that is standard practice. Every laser I have has the module bonded in that way. Idk why you chose to have me assemble the laser myself but you did. I did it in the way I customary do. I've never bought a build where I had go assemble it myself. If I wanted a kit I would have gotten it from jayrob. Anyway, like I keep saying, what can we do to resolve the issue? Do you just want the laser back & return my money?


Finally, out of frustration, and wanting to be over an done with this guy, I replied with:

Originally Posted by scumbagatheist
Matt,
I'm don't know what your problem is. But, I'm done with dealing with you. Send the unit back to me. I will refund your money. I don't understand why you've adopted an aggressive response to me when I immediately leapt to action to make things better with you. But, that wasn't good enough for you. You had to start talking about opening disputes and then bringing up your lawyer.

What part of I would fix it do you not get?? Ship the damned thing back to me, and when I receive it, I will refund your money.

I knew from the start I should have not done business with you, and I should have trusted my gut.

Brian


To which, he replied with a refusal of my offer to refund his money. All he had to do was ship it back:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd58:
No. I no longer have confidence in you. I was once young and trying to start up a business. Someone had confindence in me and helped me out. Ever since I have tried to repay the faith & trust that man had in me. As I told you, the money I allocated for this purchase was between you & Blords Dominatior. Strictly based on my sincere desire to foster (what I thought) was an aspiring, young entrepreneur like myself I chose to go with you.Origanally, all I asked for was your assurance that the issue would be resolved amicably. Due to past experience & for my own protection I did state that I would persue whatever avenue was necessary to ensure that I did not get ripped-off. You chose the adversely position. Rather than saying : send it back I'll fix it (my usual experience here - I have bought over 30 lasers on site), you instead told me that I have no recourse to protect my investment. Then proceeded to tell me that I did something wrong when assembling the unit. Like I said, if you read the msg, without getting emotionally worked up, you will see that all I asked for was assurance that we could resolve the issue. I was very clear on that. Reread: ALL I ASKED WAS FOR WAS YOUR ASSURANCE! Originally, I thought it would be a simple thing. Though I was not happy about additional shipping charges. Now I feel that you may harbor animosity towards me and not fix laser or return money if I send it back. Maybe to you $360.00 is not much. But to me it's a lot of hard work to accumulate. I cannot afford to take such a loss. Plus, I feel an obligation go the community to make everyone aware of my experience (Many ppl here have given me good advice & I donate $ regular). Anyway, I really wish things had not taken this direction (going to cost me $$ over & above the price of orginal laser from you). And I had hopped you would be someone to hire for future work. Doesn't matter, I guess your SN name is an entirely accurate characture portrayal ( the scumbag part, I'm an atheist myself).


So, now, after more than 5 offers to fix the problem, and an offer to refund his money, he has refused every option he's been given, and he's resorted to character assassination!

It's clear he is trying to muscle me into something, but I cannot tell what, as I've been as helpful as a person can be, save flying out to him to fix it in front of him.

I wasn't going to call this guy out in the public part of the forum. I basically told him to go to hell in my last reply to him, that I was completely done with him, after he told me he was going to have another builder fix it for him. I didn't save it, but he may care to share it, despite not reading it.

The reason I am posting this now, is because he just sent me, tonight:

New thread
Hello,
I took a day to think and am beginning a new thread because I don't want to continue in the direction we were going. I have not even opened last msg from you.
1. I never intended to imply that you intentionally did anything wrong. If you took it that way then perhaps I should have phrased my msg differently. The fact remains that I was sold a defective product.
2. All I wanted was assurance that the problem would be resolved and the laser would work as advertised without any additional cost to me. And that includes additional shipping costs. I paid up-front in good faith and should not be charged any additional fees to get what I already paid for.
3. I feel you were more intent on fortifying your position and making it seem as if I caused the problem rather than just fixing the defective item. That caused me concern that I would now have to have to spend more money or, have the money held up in dispute for an extended time. All I want is was what I paid for.
4. If you have a solution that will resolve the issue to our mutual satisfaction let me know. If not I will just go forward with the dispute. Because you have already accused me of 'tampering' with the item I am not comfortable returning it prior to receiving a refund. So that is not an option for me.
Let me know if you have any thoughts on how to proceed. Or not. I will check back at my usual time tomorrow, after work. Or @: name withheld@gmail.com
__________________
Matt


So, there it all is. I sold a laser that turned out to be a dud. I offered to fix it..again and again. He broke our contract my disassembling the laser and applying thermal grease (and who knows what else). I offered a refund, which he refused.

I should have trusted my gut to begin with, and never sold to this guy. Be very cautious of who you sell to, buy from, and that you clearly understand what you are agreeing to.

And still he wants to find mutual satisfaction. This is my official reply to his email.

SBA


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Old 05-22-2013, 04:16 AM #2
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

I am sorry to hear that... things like this can really take the joy out of building lasers for people.

I have had nothing but very happy people but I am so paranoid with stories like this. I actually made out really well on a deal with this guy and when he received it he sent me a text saying it didn't work. I really thought I could throw up when I heard that but then come to find out he had the batteries in backwards... even though I include a picture showing which way the batteries are inserted lol.

Hope things work out for ya
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:24 AM #3
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Yeah, imagine how well it would have gone for you if your driver didn't have reverse polarity protection!
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:35 AM #4
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Well I think you are reading it a bit with your liver and not with your eyes. I understand the frustration on both sides, but let me tell you what I think.

1. you sounded calm and helpfull at the start of the email exchange, than you take
some liver into the context and things start to go worse.

2. He has one point in saying he paid his hard earned money and since (in his opinion) the laser was damaged, you would have had to offer him to pay for the shipping cost as long as you verified that the laser was actually damaged and that it was not the fault of the batteries.

3. He is not going to make a claim with paypal since he knows that there is no possible refund for the purchase of a laser or a custom built electronic device, specially if it is working, and in the rare case that he does get to win the claim he will have to send you the laser and you will have to inspect it as if it isn't as it was shipped he won't get his money back.

4. NEVER even consider sending him the money back unless you have the laser in your hands... too easy to keep the laser and the money and than you are the one with no weapons, and you will loose both.

If he wants a solution, in my opinion, it is quite easy. You will have the laser shipped back to you at your cost, if defective that is your loss, you can ether fix it or make a full refund, if not defective than you will ask him to refund you the cost of the shipping and have the laser shipped back to him. Proof must be provided on video. Sounds quite easy to me.

Anyhow I feel that this matter could be solved. Disputes, as he is saying he will do, wont solve anything and might get your paypal accout closed for both...
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:37 AM #5
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Really sucks you had to go through all this, SBA. This is what all of us who have ever sold a laser have worried about happening. It was less painful when we did not have to worry about PayPal bannings, but these days there is a lot to lose. I hope the buyer accepts your refund/repair offer or fails to escalate the claim to PayPal. If they do claim and escalate hopefully PayPal will rule in your favor. If contacted by PayPal I would recommend stating the laser is a "custom portable alignment tool intended for use in setting up microwave communication systems" as that is one of the few accepted uses for high power lasers outside of a laboratory. Good luck!
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:37 AM #6
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Was this the saik build by any chance?
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:40 AM #7
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

as a newbie i can see the paranoia that comes along with sending money to a stranger.i actually took a leap of faith with one of the top members on here and sent 250$ for a build.my anxiety of getting my first laser pointer is horrible but i know the world will not end.i know the internet is full of scam artist but truth be known ive ordered things from all over the world and have only been screwed once but i still got my money back.3$ lol.
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:46 AM #8
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbyx View Post
Well I think you are reading it a bit with your liver and not with your eyes. I understand the frustration on both sides, but let me tell you what I think.

1. you sounded calm and helpfull at the start of the email exchange, than you take
some liver into the context and things start to go worse.

2. He has one point in saying he paid his hard earned money and since (in his opinion) the laser was damaged, you would have had to offer him to pay for the shipping cost as long as you verified that the laser was actually damaged and that it was not the fault of the batteries.

3. He is not going to make a claim with paypal since he knows that there is no possible refund for the purchase of a laser or a custom built electronic device, specially if it is working, and in the rare case that he does get to win the claim he will have to send you the laser and you will have to inspect it as if it isn't as it was shipped he won't get his money back.

4. NEVER even consider sending him the money back unless you have the laser in your hands... too easy to keep the laser and the money and than you are the one with no weapons, and you will loose both.

If he wants a solution, in my opinion, it is quite easy. You will have the laser shipped back to you at your cost, if defective that is your loss, you can ether fix it or make a full refund, if not defective than you will ask him to refund you the cost of the shipping and have the laser shipped back to him. Proof must be provided on video. Sounds quite easy to me.

Anyhow I feel that this matter could be solved. Disputes, as he is saying he will do, wont solve anything and might get your paypal accout closed for both...
I see your point about attitudes given and received. But, what you're ignoring is his breaking his contract with me, ignoring my pleas to return it for repair, refusing my offer for a refund, and finally insulting me.

He broke the contract. He ignored everything I said to him. I have every right to refuse any further business with him.
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:49 AM #9
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurthr View Post
Really sucks you had to go through all this, SBA. This is what all of us who have ever sold a laser have worried about happening. It was less painful when we did not have to worry about PayPal bannings, but these days there is a lot to lose. I hope the buyer accepts your refund/repair offer or fails to escalate the claim to PayPal. If they do claim and escalate hopefully PayPal will rule in your favor. If contacted by PayPal I would recommend stating the laser is a "custom portable alignment tool intended for use in setting up microwave communication systems" as that is one of the few accepted uses for high power lasers outside of a laboratory. Good luck!
Sig, thank you! I'm going to use that one!

One thing I didn't mention explicitly is that all members should know is that PayPal's Buyer Protection WILL NOT cover custom items. I was very sure to label the invoice I sent him with the word "Custom Flashlight Parts" slapped all over it.

Good luck even getting PayPal to send me a nasty email!
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:49 AM #10
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

I agree. A contract is a contract. Once its broken you dont have any responsibility to do anything further esp when you already offered help
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:56 AM #11
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

@sig.
that is a brilliant answer .microwave allignment tool.
i wish i had one back in the day while alligning microwave dishes on towers at night.
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:59 AM #12
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Funny...I was always aligning antennas during the day...ya know, at work and all. Never at night...
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:05 AM #13
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Just one of the things I picked up in my RF/Radio/Ham training. And yes, it makes one hell of a difference when trying to even roughly align up any LOS highly directional linkages. At a couple miles out most lasers will have enough divergence that a person at the other site will just see a bright flash that is harmless to their eyes - keep in mind 50-200mW is common, not anything stronger, so they would radio when they see the flash indicating that rough alignment has been achieved. For shorter links you could do it at night and use the beam as a visual reference from the transmission site to get the roughing done. You would only need a couple hundred meters of beam visibility to achieve a relatively high degree of rough alignment just by lining up the beam with the anti-aircraft collision beacons.

I generally mark lasers as "stimulated photonic amplifier" or "Sub-Petahertz Oscillator" or "microwave alignment tool" as a precaution. There are tons of ways to use a true description that doesn't include the words laser or flashlight.
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:07 AM #14
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Sub-Petahertz Oscillator...I love it. That's my new favorite!

Just be sure to put "CUSTOM" in the invoice!
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:57 AM #15
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Hi Scumbag. I saw your thread earlier in the vets section and Im sorry to see you have had to escalate this. Id just like to make a quick comment that it might, just pure and simply, be down to the batteries. I think this has already been mentioned too.

I had a similar problem with a flex v5 and crappy batteries running a 445. The laser would work splendidly and then after 45 seconds it would cut out. Cant actually remember whether it blinked first, but the problem was solved by buying a good quality battery.

In my saik I use 2 x AW IMR 14500's and I have never had any problems. Maybe he could try AW's? Good luck and I hope this works out for you in the end!
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:17 AM #16
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Default Re: Dispute With mattyd58.

Thanks Grainde, I'd love to be able to test that theory out. But, you see where things are now.

Perhaps mattyd58 will see your post and take your advice.
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