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Old 11-27-2011, 03:02 PM #65
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimminsurfer256 View Post
I mean it's just the truth. I needed spare cash and the purpose of selling the laser was to be able to buy a laptop -- which I did. That's the reason I didn't offer return/refund -- because I KNEW I wouldn't have the money to. I waited until the laser arrived not DOA to use up my money. I can show you the receipt for the computer if you want. I don't have a job/income other than what I can get from the overspec pen sale thread which isn't exorbitant amounts of money.. Still just a sophomore..

@lb, meant PayPal dispute. It still froze my funds and was escalated to a claim when I didn't accept giving a full refund. And I have the insurance receipt that shows the destination address and full insured amount. Apparently that wasn't enough!
If that's the case, then there was nothing else you could do and yeah, you won't have much of a luck to get money back via insurance.. If only they were not such dicks... So what can be done now?


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Old 11-27-2011, 03:15 PM #66
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
I corrected what I meant to say... Oops...

Jerry
Is that true? I don't have the device or the packaging though to show that it's not working/was packaged well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvershot View Post
If that's the case, then there was nothing else you could do and yeah, you won't have much of a luck to get money back via insurance.. If only they were not such dicks... So what can be done now?
That is the question that has been relentlessly discussed in the previous posts... He flat out refused to take me up on what I offered him so I guess we're going to let PayPal decide. TBH I don't really want to deal with this anymore since it's a lot of arguing/attacking and zero progress...

I feel like I'm in Congress.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:39 PM #67
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

This is why people will often spend the extra money to get something new...
I have had brand new electronics fail on me within a few days but that's why they offer a warranty with new products..

Used things are basically ticking time bombs with an unknown timer.. There's no way to determine how long that will be and that's a risk you are taking as a buyer of an item without a warranty.

What if Swimmin had tested it for 45 minutes and you got it and it died after 45 minutes anyway because that's how the chips fell? Would you claim he was lying or come up with some other argument?

It sucks that your laser died, if he's willing to give you anything than you should take it and be happy, or sell it and try and make back a few bucks.

I guess we'll see what PP has to say.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:06 PM #68
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
Why don't you guys:

1) Mitigate the loss by trying to sell the unit, accurately described with what you know about it, and the issue. Describe it properly, as a unit that was working, and just stopped. Put in all the info you need to ethically sell it.

2) Then take the $400, subtract from it the salvage value (whatever it sells for) and then you have your actual loss.

3) Split the actual loss.


So, if it can be sold for say $150 - take $400, and subtract the $150 salvage value. Now you've got an actual loss of $250. So Zdard shoulders $125 of it, and Swim shoulders $125 of it.

Right now, ZDark is shouldering all $400. So the $150 salvage funds would go to him. Then he's still shouldering $250 of the loss. Swim would have to then refund him $125.

So in that scenario, both parts end up out the same amount. Swim has to come up with an additional $125 to refund Zdark. Zdark gets some of his $400 back, in the form of $150 from the salvage sale, and $125 from Swim.

Of course -that presumes there is some salvage value.
I think this is the best solution for you guys. totally agree with rhd. Just take it easy and everything will work out fine! And I think that paypal dispute is not going to lead you anywhere... just give it up and talk to figure out the best solution..
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:09 PM #69
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontiacg5 View Post
I don't see what the big deal is here. Argons have a very finicky nature, it's something anyone wanting to play with gas lasers knows. The thing arrived to you working so as far as I'm concerned Swimm doesn't owe you anything. Trying to demand an agreement such as "the argon should be tested for a week before shipping" or whatever after the fact is just silly.

This whole thread reeks of someone trying to work someone else over for their own mistakes. I bet you left the thing on with the fan off or something. Either that or you were running it hot and then just shut the fans off or something else like that.

It was sold as used, it arrived in working condition and worked for a considerable period of time before mysteriously dying. I don't even see why there is an argument about this...
There is an argument because the seller claimed the argon "works great" what part of that do you not understand? Working great means that the laser runs as its intended to do. Argons are intended to run for over an hour. swimmin is shady by purposely saying it works great without even stating how long the testing was done. You call this MY OWN mistake? This is HIS mistake for trying to fool unaware buyers out of their money. You obviously havent even look at the original sale thread before you posted this. This laser CANT be ran with the fan off..the fan automatically turns on. Get out of this thread and READ the sale thread before you post. Sold as used item huh..more like sold as parts. An argon that cant even handle 1 hour of run time is a broken argon..
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:35 PM #70
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimminsurfer256 View Post
Not trashed -- attacked. I'm just a little peeved that this negative thread (see title) was created before the situation came to an end.. That's just personal feelings though.




If that had occurred with our transaction and you paid and then said you needed the money and asked me to not ship the item to you I would have happily obliged. I would not "have shipped the item anyways and disregarded [your] message." This is not even close to that situation at all. You're asking me to take back a broken item that I offered zero refund/return on and refund you money I don't have. I feel like you're just trying to attack me at this point because I don't see the similarity between the transaction you mentioned and our transaction.

Also, yes, I consider that me offering to refund you $150 is "an attempt at a refund."
Like i said before, YOU are really into misleading buyers here.. Isnt it true that its bad for argons if you turn them on and off a lot, and its better to let them idle on low power if you plan to use it later? You, on the other hand, turned it on, and then turned it off within 20 minutes, maybe even less. How do i know that wasnt causing damage to the laser while you "tested" it like that? Your attempt at a "refund" just shows that you are a bit greedy for money and wont take responsibility for your items. Its YOUR fault for not stating how you tested it. Its YOUR fault for saying it "works great". Why didnt you put "laser has been tested several times for only 10-20 minutes at a time" then? That would have stopped me from buying the laser right there because i would know something is up..or else you would have tested it fully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
This is a hard one to call....

1) only the sender can open a Insurance Claim....
2) If you pay for Insurance then you get a receipt of the Value Insured.
3) RHD's idea is doable and fair.
4) You could get it repaired and split the cost of repair
5) Perhaps it is only a PS part that has blown and a Member could fit it.


Jerry
Buyer or sender can open insurance claim..however this claim WILL fail without a transaction number. An article insurance number is not enough because theres no way to link the insurance purchase to the confirmation of the item..

He wont go with RHD's idead. If he's this unwilling to let me return for a refund, he's most likely not going to split that $400 i gave him after the laser sells for parts..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyfromhe View Post
This is why people will often spend the extra money to get something new...
I have had brand new electronics fail on me within a few days but that's why they offer a warranty with new products..

Used things are basically ticking time bombs with an unknown timer.. There's no way to determine how long that will be and that's a risk you are taking as a buyer of an item without a warranty.

What if Swimmin had tested it for 45 minutes and you got it and it died after 45 minutes anyway because that's how the chips fell? Would you claim he was lying or come up with some other argument?

It sucks that your laser died, if he's willing to give you anything than you should take it and be happy, or sell it and try and make back a few bucks.

I guess we'll see what PP has to say.
For local sales thats usually the case because you get to test it however you want.. For online sales its different.. I KNOW right now that if this argon works for 5 minutes and i put it up on ebay saying used, theres going to be a case opened against me for SNAD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiogoNeves View Post
I think this is the best solution for you guys. totally agree with rhd. Just take it easy and everything will work out fine! And I think that paypal dispute is not going to lead you anywhere... just give it up and talk to figure out the best solution..
I would agree with that..but how will i get a guarantee that he will give me back some money after the argon is sold..? Theres absolutely no way to guarantee that..
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:37 PM #71
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdarkazn View Post
There is an argument because the seller claimed the argon "works great" what part of that do you not understand? Working great means that the laser runs as its intended to do. Argons are intended to run for over an hour. swimmin is shady by purposely saying it works great without even stating how long the testing was done. You call this MY OWN mistake? This is HIS mistake for trying to fool unaware buyers out of their money. You obviously havent even look at the original sale thread before you posted this. This laser CANT be ran with the fan off..the fan automatically turns on. Get out of this thread and READ the sale thread before you post. Sold as used item huh..more like sold as parts. An argon that cant even handle 1 hour of run time is a broken argon..
Comment 1:

I think you've just taken this beyond what is reasonably supportable. Can you back up the highlighted comment with evidence? Not speculation, interpretation, conclusions, or presumptions - but evidence?

To toss out words like "shady", "purposely", and "fool", is a fairly serious accusation. IMO, that's an accusation that would need to be founded on more than just presumption or gut. I haven't followed this too too closely, but I haven't seen any evidence supporting the claim that Swim knew about, or should have known about, the flaw ahead of time. He may have, I don't know, but I certainly haven't seen any evidence to substantiate such a claim.

Comment 2:

I think the big logical gap that we're all seeing, and you're not doing a great job of closing for us, is the disconnect between "works great" in the present tense, and "will continue working great" as a claim about the future. These are not synonymous. This is the big elephant in the room that you're not addressing.

If something "works great" now, that is perfectly consistent with the reality that it may not "work great" in the future.

Something can "work great" today, and stop "working great" tomorrow, but that doesn't retroactively make the condition of "working great" today incorrect/inaccurate/dishonest. If it did, then you'd basically be saying that the present condition of an item is determined by it's future state. That's a logical paradox.

Comment 3:

You can accept that it may have been "working great" when Swim sold it to you, and you can accept that he may have been acting honestly when he sold it, yet still feel like there are grounds for asking him for some compensation. Sticking to logic here is the way to go. I don't think you do your argument any favours by putting forward accusations that aren't logically supported by evidence. Those accusations may or may not be accurate, but they are not well founded.

Comment 4:

EDIT: Follow-up from ZDark, I want to highlight that he has mentioned that this is NOT his Argon on eBay.

I know we all sort of let THIS THREAD (LaserPhysics) and the eBay item it references (eBay - LaserPhysics 5-50mW 488nm) drop from conversation. But if that eBay item is in fact the Argon we're talking about here, and you're the seller of that item, then don't you think the actual description of it on eBay right now is more questionable than what Swim is being accused of?

The Current eBay Item Description:
Quote:
This laser is being sold AS-IS. When plugged in, Main Power CAN be turned on, fan turns on when key is switched to "ON" position. No further testing can be done because of a missing remote. Item looks in great condition cosmetically so it could possible be a fully working unit with a remote.
I think everyone would hate to see the exact same thread arise again, with roles reversed, and a new party putting forth the same complaint as a buyer.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:42 PM #72
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdarkazn View Post
There is an argument because the seller claimed the argon "works great" what part of that do you not understand? Working great means that the laser runs as its intended to do. Argons are intended to run for over an hour. swimmin is shady by purposely saying it works great without even stating how long the testing was done. You call this MY OWN mistake? This is HIS mistake for trying to fool unaware buyers out of their money. You obviously havent even look at the original sale thread before you posted this. This laser CANT be ran with the fan off..the fan automatically turns on. Get out of this thread and READ the sale thread before you post. Sold as used item huh..more like sold as parts. An argon that cant even handle 1 hour of run time is a broken argon..
I would consider working great to mean it's been tested, it outputs the correct amount of power and it has worked for several on and off cycles. I believe he met that definition.

Do you have some source that says an argon need to be tested for at least an hour to confirm it is in working condition? Most people couldn't be bothered to run something for an hour as a test (and do you really want another hour of use put on the laser you are buying)

I went and read the original thread. I don't see any mention of no returns/refunds or anything on there at all, but as Judge Judy says any sale of a used item is assumed AS-IS unless some form of guaranty is promised in writing. Once it leaves the sellers hands it's no longer their responsibly.

People buy used cars sight unseen. They have the seller transport it to a trusted mechanic and have them check it out and send the buyer a report, and even then you can end up with stuck paying to fix a major issue.

If you had special testing requirements you should have asked before you bought it. You could have asked him to run it for an hour or sent it to a middle man to inspect it (who would have probably tested it for 5-10 mins and told you it was fine).

Maybe there was dust inside impeding airflow or slowing down the fan? Maybe it had not been maintained properly which is why it didn't operate for over an hour and maybe something as simple as a cleaning would have resolved the problem? I don't know I am not an expert in this field.

Or maybe a component was already on it's death bed and no one could ever possibly know and it just failed. That happens sometimes, usually whoever had the thing when that happens is the one that's stuck dealing with it.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:45 PM #73
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhd View Post
Comment 1:

I think you've just taken this beyond what is reasonably supportable. Can you back up the highlighted comment with evidence? Not speculation, interpretation, conclusions, or presumptions - but evidence?

To toss out words like "shady", "purposely", and "fool", is a fairly serious accusation. IMO, that's an accusation that would need to be founded on more than just presumption or gut. I haven't followed this too too closely, but I haven't seen any evidence supporting the claim that Swim knew about, or should have known about, the flaw ahead of time. He may have, I don't know, but I certainly haven't seen any evidence to substantiate such a claim.

Comment 2:

I think the big logical gap that we're all seeing, and you're not doing a great job of closing for us, is the disconnect between "works great" in the present tense, and "will continue working great" in the future. These are not synonymous. This is the big elephant in the room that you're not addressing.

If something "works great", that is perfectly consistent with the reality that it may not "work great" in the future.

Something can "work great" today, and stop "working great" tomorrow, but that doesn't retroactively make the condition of "working great" today incorrect/inaccurate/dishonest. If it did, then you'd basically be saying that the present condition of an item is determined by it's future state. This would be a logical paradox.

Comment 3:

You can accept that it may have been "working great" when Swim sold it to you, and you can accept that he may have been acting honestly when he sold it, yet still feel like there are grounds for asking him for some compensation. Sticking to logic here is the way to go. I don't think you do your argument any favours by putting forward accusations that aren't logically supported by evidence. Those accusations may or may not be accurate, but they are not well founded.

Comment 4:

I know we all sort of let THIS THREAD (LaserPhysics) and the eBay item it references (eBay - LaserPhysics 5-50mW 488nm) drop from conversation. But if that eBay item is in fact the Argon we're talking about here, then don't you think your actual description of it is more questionable than what Swim is being accused of?

The eBay Item Description:


I think everyone would hate to see the exact same thread arise again, with roles reversed, and a new party putting forth the same complaint as a buyer.
I told you before.. you CANT say an item works great when it doesnt work as its supposed to do. You CANT say a laptop works great if all you've done is turn it on to desktop and leave it there for 20 minutes. My logic here is that "works great" means it functions AS INTENDED. This didnt function as intended so it is NOT my fault. That is NOT my argon. You want to see my ebay? Find zdarkazn on ebay. I said before, WHY didnt he put that he only tested it for 10-20 minute intervals? THAT right there would have stopped me from buying it. He put "works great" This stupid argon doesnt even work great like an argon should.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:50 PM #74
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyfromhe View Post
I would consider working great to mean it's been tested, it outputs the correct amount of power and it has worked for several on and off cycles. I believe he met that definition.

Do you have some source that says an argon need to be tested for at least an hour to confirm it is in working condition? Most people couldn't be bothered to run something for an hour as a test (and do you really want another hour of use put on the laser you are buying)

I went and read the original thread. I don't see any mention of no returns/refunds or anything on there at all, but as Judge Judy says any sale of a used item is assumed AS-IS unless some form of guaranty is promised in writing. Once it leaves the sellers hands it's no longer their responsibly.

People buy used cars sight unseen. They have the seller transport it to a trusted mechanic and have them check it out and send the buyer a report, and even then you can end up with stuck paying to fix a major issue.

If you had special testing requirements you should have asked before you bought it. You could have asked him to run it for an hour or sent it to a middle man to inspect it (who would have probably tested it for 5-10 mins and told you it was fine).

Maybe there was dust inside impeding airflow or slowing down the fan? Maybe it had not been maintained properly which is why it didn't operate for over an hour and maybe something as simple as a cleaning would have resolved the problem? I don't know I am not an expert in this field.

Or maybe a component was already on it's death bed and no one could ever possibly know and it just failed. That happens sometimes, usually whoever had the thing when that happens is the one that's stuck dealing with it.
Who buys used cars unseen? Carmax? People that buy from copart? Ebay car buyers? I didnt want to send it to middleman because i trusted him.. Do YOU have anything that shows that used items can be tested for a little bit only and then put up as "works great"? Go look at ebay's definition of used. Furthermore, the sale thread didnt even say "sold as-is" Even if i asked him to run it for a long time, HOW will i know for sure that he in fact did it? Theres NO way to tell if he actually did it, or if he just turned it on for 20 minutes as usual and says he left it for an hour.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:53 PM #75
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

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Originally Posted by zdarkazn View Post
I told you before.. you CANT say an item works great when it doesnt work as its supposed to do. You CANT say a laptop works great if all you've done is turn it on to desktop and leave it there for 20 minutes. My logic here is that "works great" means it functions AS INTENDED. This didnt function as intended so it is NOT my fault. That is NOT my argon. You want to see my ebay? Find zdarkazn on ebay. I said before, WHY didnt he put that he only tested it for 10-20 minute intervals? THAT right there would have stopped me from buying it. He put "works great" This stupid argon doesnt even work great like an argon should.
You do realize that in our PMs prior to your purchase I clearly stated that as I understood it good maintenance is at least running the laser for ~15 minutes once a month.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:58 PM #76
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

This is absurd. This is clearly someone trying to extort someone for money lead with the threat of a bad reputation if he doesn't get his way.

It is absolutely insane to expect a guarantee that the laser (especially an argon) is going to continue to work for an exact period of time. No amount of testing in the world would tell you how long the laser would continue to work.

His e-bay description just makes it. He obviously knows it doesn't work yet he lists it as unable to test due to a missing remote. Sure the e-bay listing might not be his (they're both from the same area of cali, there's lots of comments about laptops in the feedback and even a few laser things.)

He is unhappy that he has to take a hit on this one so he is trying to put the blame on anyone else possible. He clearly doesn't care if it's Swimm or some random e-bay sap.

For that matter, what if swimm wanted the laser back? Is he going to end the e-bay listing? Or is he just hoping he can get $200 from swimm and another 500 from ebay?

The fan can always be shut off before the laser is cool, it's called unplugging it from the wall to shut it off. If you were running it for 45 minutes even at low power and then just unplugged it I wouldn't be surprised at all if something burned up and that would be 100% your fault.

And of course this is all from the guy who has so much money
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:00 PM #77
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimminsurfer256 View Post
You do realize that in our PMs prior to your purchase I clearly stated that as I understood it good maintenance is at least running the laser for ~15 minutes once a month.
If you search around the forum, you'll find a thread that says its a bad idea to turn argons on and off a lot and its better to idle it if you plan on using it later. Thats like asking the question "should i turn my laptop on and off every 20 minutes?"
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:02 PM #78
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdarkazn View Post
I told you before.. you CANT say an item works great when it doesnt work as its supposed to do. You CANT say a laptop works great if all you've done is turn it on to desktop and leave it there for 20 minutes. My logic here is that "works great" means it functions AS INTENDED. This didnt function as intended so it is NOT my fault. That is NOT my argon. You want to see my ebay? Find zdarkazn on ebay. I said before, WHY didnt he put that he only tested it for 10-20 minute intervals? THAT right there would have stopped me from buying it. He put "works great" This stupid argon doesnt even work great like an argon should.
Ok, I've edited that post to draw attention to your comment that it's not your Argon up on eBay (just in case anyone only reads my post, and misses your reply).

At any rate that, I see your point about "working great" implying "works as intended". There's some weight to that argument in my mind. I think someone commented that an Argon, if working properly, is intended to be able to run indefinitely (unlimited duty cycle). So how would you test that? 5 minutes isn't any more "indefinite" than 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, or an hour. You know?
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:08 PM #79
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

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Originally Posted by Pontiacg5 View Post
This is absurd. This is clearly someone trying to extort someone for money lead with the threat of a bad reputation if he doesn't get his way.

It is absolutely insane to expect a guarantee that the laser (especially an argon) is going to continue to work for an exact period of time. No amount of testing in the world would tell you how long the laser would continue to work.

His e-bay description just makes it. He obviously knows it doesn't work yet he lists it as unable to test due to a missing remote. Sure the e-bay listing might not be his (they're both from the same area of cali, there's lots of comments about laptops in the feedback and even a few laser things.)

He is unhappy that he has to take a hit on this one so he is trying to put the blame on anyone else possible. He clearly doesn't care if it's Swimm or some random e-bay sap.

For that matter, what if swimm wanted the laser back? Is he going to end the e-bay listing? Or is he just hoping he can get $200 from swimm and another 500 from ebay?

The fan can always be shut off before the laser is cool, it's called unplugging it from the wall to shut it off. If you were running it for 45 minutes even at low power and then just unplugged it I wouldn't be surprised at all if something burned up and that would be 100% your fault.

And of course this is all from the guy who has so much money
Are you clearly that obtuse? You realize its IMPOSSIBLE to get $500 from ebay with that price, AND furthermore how would someone even be able to sell something they dont have? Like i said THAT IS NOT MY LISTING. Have you ever used ebay before..? You dont even get $500 into your paypal if you lise for $500..
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:11 PM #80
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Default Re: Bad Experience with SwimminSurfer256

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdarkazn View Post
Are you clearly that obtuse? You realize its IMPOSSIBLE to get $500 from ebay with that price, AND furthermore how would someone even be able to sell something they dont have? Like i said THAT IS NOT MY LISTING. Have you ever used ebay before..? You dont even get $500 into your paypal if you lise for $500..
It's a bit much to think it's coincidence that this laser pops up on eBay right now... Exact same model. In your exact area. Not working. No remote. AND the power cable was "routed to a standard US plug."
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50mW Argon
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