Your opinion on USA Free Health Care

The whole argument is speculation only, so we can all be wrong. Including all the clowns on TV. We'll just have to wait to see how it plays out. Its happening if we like or not. Instead of crying, we all should be working on getting it right. The quicker we do this, the better it is for all.

Tech_Junkie said:

The whole argument is speculation only, so we can all be wrong. Including all the clowns on TV. We'll just have to wait to see how it plays out. Its happening if we like or not. Instead of crying, we all should be working on getting it right. The quicker we do this, the better it is for all.

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Its dangerous to accept whatever the government does because its just happening "whether we like it or not". That's kind of a scary thought. I know it's not what you mean it, but all I see with that statement is "Well the government is forcing us anyways, so might as well play along". Yikes!

I like your attitude in this though, even if it ISN'T the best thing for the U.S., we will most likely get through it just fine.

Meatball said:

I like your attitude in this though, even if it ISN'T the best thing for the U.S., we will most likely get through it just fine.

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Exactly, we always do. No need to panic.

Tech_Junkie said:

And for everyone talking about government spending, lets all reflect back to Bush's open check book to get Sadam. Who, had 0 to do with al qaeda, or weapons of mass destruction. There was no spending caps at all, and a shit load high wealth companies made multi-billions. At least this is directed at the public. And if some of the rich, that raped the American public, has to give some back, then oh well. I have no pity for these people.

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You criticize someone else for spreading "propaganda" in the same post that you start up your own class warfare engine? That's slick, right there. Slick.

And as far as the wars, wow, what short memories we all have. That was a 100% bipartisan effort, with nearly 100% consent from Congress. As luck would have it, Obama wasn't in office yet, so we don't know how he would've voted, but Clinton voted yes in the Senate and I have a feeling Obama would've voted yes as well, what with all the bipartisan support. Oh, and the total cost of that "open checkbook" of that 10 year war, still even today has not even reached the purported size of this healthcare/insurance bill (and of course this bill is going to end up being a LOT bigger when the doc fix and the rest of the Medicare/Medicaid rollbacks are restored, which they will be once it's no longer convenient to hide the true cost of the bill)

I'm also amazed that "Bush did it too!!!1!one!!" ever passes for a valid argument. It's just astounding that people think it's a valid thought process to say "Bush is the worst president ever", and then somehow justify Obama's actions by saying "Bush did it too". Maybe you're not one of these people that hated Bush, but I get that one all the time so I'm just pointing out the contradiction in logic I so often see in other venues and find humorous.

But anyway, couldn't I be a person who was against war spending AND against healthcare spending? Just because I don't like Obama and his policies doesn't mean I approve(d) of Bush's. They've both done things that I feel violate the principles and laws this country is founded on, they both pushed for and approved of record levels of deficit spending. Saying that Bush built record deficits is in no way a justification for the fact that Obama has built even bigger record deficits. Both the wrong thing to do.

Well excuuuuuse me...



LMAO.

By the way, I know I type a lot in stuff like this, but I guess I should make clear I'm having fun doing this. I'm not angry, or upset, or anything like that. I enjoy banter back and forth until it becomes too uncivilized (this hasn't, as far as I'm concerned, I think we're doing pretty well), and I enjoy discussing opinions and trying to change minds.

I also think it's important that more people understand what's in this bill and get away from what the pundits are telling us. And to really look at how all laws, especially the biggies, are really affecting us and are going to be affecting us. With such rampant misunderstandings out there (very well exemplified by the OP and several other posts discussing government-run healthcare, which this bill does NOT do), I think it's important and I enjoy setting records straight. Of course people should research it themselves, and come back at me if what they find doesn't agree.

I just want to make sure people don't think I'm angry or upset on this thread. I type a lot, but I'm having fun.

Plus, I'm winning :eg::na:

LOL free (taxes!)- personally I don't feel good about people spending money to pull the weight of others. I think to some extent I even have moral objections, when people enter adulthood I think they should be entirely responsible for themselves. Otherwise we're fighting darwinism. People complain about humanity being stupid, and then they work to make it worse. On top of that, we're spending all this money that might support increased reproduction for groups with less access to education, while at the same time decreasing the amount of money spent on education. I don't like it at all. So in short, free health care would be nice, but I think this is just a program to limit individual freedoms and increase taxes and or national debt.

pullbangdead said:

By the way, I know I type a lot in stuff like this, but I guess I should make clear I'm having fun doing this. I'm not angry, or upset, or anything like that. I enjoy banter back and forth until it becomes too uncivilized (this hasn't, as far as I'm concerned, I think we're doing pretty well), and I enjoy discussing opinions and trying to change minds.

I also think it's important that more people understand what's in this bill and get away from what the pundits are telling us. And to really look at how all laws, especially the biggies, are really affecting us and are going to be affecting us. With such rampant misunderstandings out there (very well exemplified by the OP and several other posts discussing government-run healthcare, which this bill does NOT do), I think it's important and I enjoy setting records straight. Of course people should research it themselves, and come back at me if what they find doesn't agree.

I just want to make sure people don't think I'm angry or upset on this thread. I type a lot, but I'm having fun.

Plus, I'm whining :eg::na:

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Fixed your typo.. :eg::na:

Tech_Junkie said:

The whole argument is speculation only, so we can all be wrong. Including all the clowns on TV. We'll just have to wait to see how it plays out. Its happening if we like or not. Instead of crying, we all should be working on getting it right. The quicker we do this, the better it is for all.

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That's what bugs me about people who love to brag about being tax payers. Its not like they are donating my choice, they have to no matter what.

Crazy Jay said:

That's what bugs me about people who love to brag about being tax payers. Its not like they are donating my choice, they have to no matter what.

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You do realize how many Americans pay zero income taxes, right?

There are still excise taxes (gas tax is one of the biggies) and things like FICA (SS/Medicare) and payroll taxes.

But as far as the regular income tax, you realize that well over a third of the households in the US don't pay ANY income taxes, and that many of these actually receive money instead of paying it?

Over 38% of US citizens either pay zero income tax or receive money from income tax credits. And that number is trending upwards, and decidedly so at that.

pullbangdead said:

You do realize how many Americans pay zero income taxes, right?

There are still excise taxes (gas tax is one of the biggies) and things like FICA (SS/Medicare) and payroll taxes.

But as far as the regular income tax, you realize that well over a third of the households in the US don't pay ANY income taxes, and that many of these actually receive money instead of paying it?

Over 38% of US citizens either pay zero income tax or receive money from income tax credits. And that number is trending upwards, and decidedly so at that.

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Then that makes them even worse now doesn't it?

ossumguywill said:

...I don't feel good about people spending money to pull the weight of others... ...I think they should be entirely responsible for themselves...

...decreasing the amount of money spent on education. I don't like it at all.

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Lol, so you don't like social programs, people should be paying their own way for everything, we shouldn't be paying to help others with our taxes, yet schools, and presumably roads, police, fire departments, libraries, the postal service, highways, parks, etc are fine?

I never understood that argument, that someone else's health isn't important, but their education is. How can someone benefit society if they're dead? A stupid alive person is more useful to society than a smart dead one. How can you hate paying for others when you already pay for their mail and the upkeep of the street they live on, their garbage disposal, etc? If someone else's house is on fire, you'd rather they burn than your tax dollars being spent putting out the fire?

For those who want to know how much it costs:

In the netherlands we have a similar system, where everyone is required by law to have basic* health insurance, and all health insurance companies are obliged to accept anyone for this care package at the same price.

Since we do have to pay to the insurance companies directly, the price is transparent: It costs about 1000 euro per person per year. Children under 18 get free coverage with their parents insurance. Also, you have to pay the first 150 euros of healthcare costs yourself, everything above is covered by insurance.

Medical standards are pretty good around here, so i'd assume it would boil down to a similar amount per person in the US.

* basic is not 'bad' in this context. It covers GP, virtually all prescription medicine, and all non-elective surgery. Also, complex surgery is paid for by insurance, so you dont get situations where people have a damaged finger cut off that could otherwise be saved at high surgery costs.

Public Education....FAIL
Social Security .....FAILING
Health Care.......... ?

it is totally bogus that our congress can enforce laws upon us that they are exempt from. This to me is the most frustrating...

michael

pseudolobster said:

Lol, so you don't like social programs, people should be paying their own way for everything, we shouldn't be paying to help others with our taxes, yet schools, and presumably roads, police, fire departments, libraries, the postal service, highways, parks, etc are fine?

I never understood that argument, that someone else's health isn't important, but their education is. How can someone benefit society if they're dead? A stupid alive person is more useful to society than a smart dead one. How can you hate paying for others when you already pay for their mail and the upkeep of the street they live on, their garbage disposal, etc? If someone else's house is on fire, you'd rather they burn than your tax dollars being spent putting out the fire?

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The idea is that if you give them a good education, they can pull their own @ss out of the gutter rather than have someone else do the work for them. Children can't be expected do do this, but adults should be able to. The difference between providing education and providing health care is the result. If you give someone an education with your taxes, it will be hard for them NOT to contribute to society and the system. If you pay to keep some lazy person on welfare with your taxes, or pay to keep a crackhead alive, there's no guarantee that they're ever gonna give back to the system or contribute to society. In fact, they will probably continue to be a detriment. The focus should be on making sub-average (in terms of education level or what they do at least) people better, not keeping them healthy with no return expectations. It's like if you have $1000 and a relative in a coma, you can either pay to bring them out of the coma or to keep them in the coma but feed them through a tube for the next year. For me, keeping people on supported health insurance is like keeping them on the tube and in the coma.

^Even though I feel that this country needs to be more progressive in order to keep up with the rest of the world, the above, IMO, is the only rational argument against this legislation. NOT that Obama is somehow the first black Nazi president (or the first black Nazi at all for that matter) or the antichrist, NOT that we're no longer a free country (when were we ever?) which are arguments I've seen put forth by people who would normally be considered upstanding citizens. Even so, in no way do I feel that this piece of legislation is worthy of all this bickering. In every comparable instance throughout US history, things haven't ended up all that bad in the end. I'll get all riled up whenever there's a REAL reason to.

The truth is, though, that none of us have the slightest clue how this legislation will end up when the finalized version of it is finally in full effect 5+ years from now.