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Old 07-12-2008, 07:53 AM #17
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

I'm watching it. But you use a 1.3 HOUR video to make your point? Jeebus, that's not very time efficient for me, now is it?

Also, that's a reflection on the plane. Notice how there's also a silver rectangle behind the wing, and spots on the engines. Check out the other angles, there's nothing there.

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Old 07-12-2008, 08:26 AM #18
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

This is interesting... loose change gets owned over and over again in a debate with popular mechanics. I think the writer/director of the movie makes himself look a little bit stupid in the interview, but his buddy (the 'researcher) comes across as a total douchebag. They both get all pissy and whiney. A debate is not about anything personal, it is just to go over the facts. The guys from pop. mechanics do a great job, even with the girly men whining the whole time.

part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stVmEmJ666M

two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stVmEmJ666M

three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stVmEmJ666M

four:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpcki...eature=related

five:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEg6X...eature=related

Watch all five.. they're pretty good!!

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Old 07-12-2008, 08:40 AM #19
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

well i always just thought it really was terrorists and hijackings. But then when i personally got a hold of all types of dollar bulls except for a 50 and tried the thing where you fold it showing the towers coming down, that kind of made me suspicious. It's also strange because the bills from before and after 2001 have this.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxdyyTZvUk[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC71TjXb05w[/media]

but then again maybe its JUST a coincidence...but WHY ARE THERE SO MANY COINCIDENCES?? there are too many to name lol.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:42 AM #20
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeey
well i always just thought it really was terrorists and hijackings. But then when i personally got a hold of all types of dollar bulls except for a 50 and tried the thing where you fold it showing the towers coming down, that kind of made me suspicious. It's also strange because the bills from before and after 2001 have this.
You could probably fold a dollar bill a bunch of ways to make it look like anything you want.... it's just a coincidence *8-)

But as they say, in conspiracy theory there is no coincidence *;D

edit: OMG I HAVE 911 POSTS!! ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:52 AM #21
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

lol yeah but why when you fold them all the exact same way does the tower go down and smoke rises up?
quick take a screen shot! and do it before you reply! dont wanna mess anything up lol.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:57 AM #22
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Oh come on. Think of the millions and millions of documents that DON'T fold up to form a conspiracy image.

Out of all those official documents you can think of, of course 1 will look suss when you fold it right, chance and statistics
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:00 AM #23
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

I guess there is also something about osama binladen being fake and how he is just some guy they hired. i dont know the whole story, but apparently in the video's he releases it shows a ring on one of his fingers and the religion he is he shouldn't have the ring on that finger or something, idk lol. And that is why they havn't caught him.
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Old 07-12-2008, 10:13 AM #24
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Ok, I watched the entire video, having already heard all those "theories", and yep, that guy is wrong. *Sorry. *He's not a civil engineer or a materials engineer, or an engineer at all, and he's just flat out wrong. *Keep reading for a like-by-line on the things I picked out from that video

He says: Pentagon no passenger, because titanium can't vaporize and a 3 ft piece.
I say: 3 ft hub plus 3 ft blades is a 9 ft wide engine easy. *And I guarantee I can turn a piece of titanium into nothing but dust given the resources. *That much kinetic energy up against as immovable a building as has ever been constructed, yep, metal will turn to dust, and will take out steel-reinforced concrete with it int he process. *There have been umpteen civil engineering schools do computer modeling to show exactly how it happened, including at least one report from a university in Beijing. *China in on it too? *Look 'em up.

He says: No other time a plane has ever been so thoroughly destroyed, or "vaporized"
Again: No plane has ever hit anything head on as strong as the Pentagon. *Literally an unstoppable force against an immovable object. *And the both gave some, but the ALUMINUM plane got the worst of it. *Try throwing a soda can full of kerosene at a solid concrete wall at 500+ mph, it won't survive, and it'll make a heck of a dent.

He says: eye witnesses saw different planes
He's also not a psychologist, who have done hundreds of reports on the on-reliability of eye-witnesses, especially those not expecting anything and experiencing the most catastrophic event of their lives. *Look up the studies, eye witnesses are horribly unreliable, as has been proven over and over.

He says: A shockwave from the Pentagon proves no plane, but an explosion instead.
I say: Do a quick experiment, clap your hands together right in front of you face. *Feel that air hit your face? *Yep, no explosion, but two objects colliding does push a wave of air outward in all directions. *And it 500+mph, yep, that wave would be called a shockwave and would knock you off your feet. *Oh, that and all the kerosene too.

He says: The Pentagon site has a white area, must be the aerial bullseye.
Or, it's a gravel construction site parking lot. *Don't you think it would be easy enough to spot the HUGE FREAKING PENTAGON (a fairly unique building, I've never seen another) from above without needing the little white square on one side to know where to hit?

He says: Rumsfeld was safe on the other side of the building.
I dont know about you, but if I'm crashing something into a building, I'd be somewhere else that day. *Maybe out to lunch? *Morning coffee? *Anything? *But no, he was on the other side of the building (in his own office, no less), so he MUST have known it was going to happen on the other side. :

He says: *Blah blah blah WTC Building 7
Ok, no one ever tells the full story of building 7. *Remember all those stats about how big the Towers were? *Well the towers FELL ON WTC 7. *Check out photos http://www.debunking911.com/WTC72.htm *There was a 20 story hole in WTC 7. *Add to that, there were fires, which they decided to not even fight. *Then, oh yeah, there was a massive fuel oil storage facility inside the building. *And, not only that, look at the aftermath (including photos linked above), it didn't fall straight down in its footprint, it did fall over away from the television camera, towards the south were the 20 story hole was.

He said: towers were the first buildings to ever fall due to fire
Experts say: There has never been another situation like this one, ever. *The towers were not a solid structure, they were a "tube-in-a-tube". *And the tubes got cut off when the plane went through them. *There was massive structural damage. *And there was massive fire damage. *Either was ok, but not BOTH. *And also, the towers, as the video says, were designed to withstand 707 impact. *A 767 is a bigger plane that weighs more, and it did withstand the impact. *BUT, they could no withstand the impact AND the fire.

He says: *The building came down in free-fall.
Funny, I can't actually see the building itself, because after about 5 seconds, there is a huge cloud of dust in the way. *The debris will fall at free-fall, so the cloud fell around the building at those speeds. *Faster than the building was falling, I might add *But he assume the building is falling at the same rate as the dust cloud around it.

He says: Underwriters Labs guy says steel couldn't have weakened.
I (A materials engineer, knowing a lot about steel and metals) say: *You don't have to melt steel to weaken it. *The fireproofing around supports wasn't there. *So, there's steel and a huge fire around it, but the fire isn't hot enough to melt it. *Let's lay, 1500F. *That won't melt the steel, absolutely right. *But the eutectic of the iron-carbon system in the area of steel is 1333F. *That means at least part of the steel changes phases from that nice, strong combo of ferrite and cementite that we all love so much to austenite. *Still solid, didn't melt, but it got a heck of a lot weaker in doing so. *(where ferrite/cementite are alloys of Fe/C, austenite is a solid solution of the two. *Very different things). *Heat also does something known as annealing. *This serves to change a very hard, strong steel into a softer, more ductile steel, one that also has a lower yield strength and a lower fracture strength. *So even if it wasn't changing the structure of the steel through the whole steel beams, it was annealing the steel, causing it to weaken. *Massive structural damage + phase change from ferrite/cementite to austenite + annealing or over-aging effects = catastrophic failure

He says: molten steel in basement
I say: *Ever ice skated? *You know how that works? *Well, the pressure (force/area) on the blade (since all your weight is on a very small area) melts the ice. *It doesn't increase the temperature, but the huge increase in pressure changes the water from solid to liquid. *Same thing happens with all metals too, pressure can change phases just like temperature can. *Also, there's something known as "adiabatic heating/cooling", which is where a constant amount of gas, when changing pressure, undergoes a change in temperature due to that change. *When you rapidly compress gas to a higher pressure, the temperature goes up drastically. *This is physics. *The pressure of a massive building falling, compressing all the gas in the basement, would certainly undergo MASSIVE adiabatic heating, plenty to melt aluminum of possibly even iron. *Another interesting point: *High energy collision of aluminum with steel, resulting in fine particles of both being disbursed in a high temperature oxidizing environment. *Fine particles of oxidized iron, plus fine aluminum, plus heat. *See where I'm going with this? *THERMITE. *Not saying it happened exactly like that, but that chemical reaction to produce all that heat definitely had all its prerequisites. *And any chemical reaction going on up there had excellent chances of being exothermic, giving even more heat. *And one more thing: mercury. *There were tons of it in groundzero after the collapse, because all those fluoresescent lightbulbs had mercury in them. *Even if it's not pure mercury, mercury will alloy with other metals. *In fact, it will hook up with iron, that stuff the building was made of, and will reduce the melting point drastically. *The more Hg you put in with some iron, the lowering the melting point gets.



He says: explosions on lower floors,
I say: the planes sever elevators shafts and cables. *Falling elevators, along with fireballs coming down the shafts. *Huge pressure explosions from elevators compressing air in the shafts. *Enough said.

He says: *Windows blow out ahead of collapsing building
I say: *Again, pressure. *When a floor begin to get compress, the air has to go somewhere. *The windows are easy to break, the air escapes. *The top of the building is falling, of course it will cause pressure. *Up in the building, windows blow out. *Int he basement, no windows, you get the adiabatic compression mentioned above.

He says: Flashing lights in the buildings
Fire alarms? *I know all big buildings around me have flashing strobes. *Previously-mentioned pressure explosions? *Don't know, but also, witnesses are the least reliable things in the world, as mentioned above.

He says: People heard lots of explosions
I say: *Ever heard a piece of steel just break from force? *No? *It's LOUD. *A one inch circular bar will go WHAM and scare the crap out of you. *Imagine what a 3 or 4 foot beam of steel would sound like if it just snaps suddenly, which is what was happening. *It would have to be deafening, just the energy released is HUGE, and like the guy said, there were THOUSANDS of these steel beams snapping like toothpicks when the building fell

He said: *The building fell straight down, in its footprint, controlled demolition.
Look at aftermath photos, it fell all around, it damaged many other buildings, it didn't fall in its footprint, but it makes no sense for it to fall over. *It was just pancaking down.

He said: Flight 93 went somewhere else.
I say: pure confusion. *Every plane in the country was in the wrong place, no one knew where all the planes were when they all basically emergency landed.

He says: Black boxes
I say: *Black boxe4s aren't always found, they aren't always recoverable/usable, and there was confusion over them. *It's not Donald Rumsfeld's job to keep up with their status, he's not the FAA or the NTSB, he's DOD.

He says: Calls faked, because they were "weird" and cellphones won't work
I say: They used seat-back phones, not cell phones. *And even if cell phones don't work at high altitude, they work at low altitude, where the plans had to be at some point. *And as far as being "weird", what would you say? *I'd be in complete shock, unable to appropriately respond. *Shock and trauma, and not wanting to piss off your captor by talking on the phone.

He says: stuff about gold stored there
Of course they had armed guards watching while excavating all that gold, would you let the construction workers just go at it unsupervised? *And if it was being moved as a pre-planned move (the gold moves ALL the time, literally, constant transactions), they would have it on a truck leaving in the morning, but wouldn't have been able to once the attack started and the streets were all closed. *So they left it in a secure location and evacuated like they were told to. *Simple explanation.


He said: This was all a very cunning plan by Bush et al.
Umm, aren't these the same people who rave about how dumb Bush is? *And here's one: *If they're ingenious and talented enough to do all of this and cover it all up in view of billions over the entire world, to get the permission to invade these other countries, then why couldn't they fabricate some WMDs in Iraq and cover that up too? *This massive cover up had to fold the world and involve thousands of cohorts in mass planning in broad daylight. *In Iraq, they would've needed a few dozen soldiers and a truck, and they could have completely fooled the world into thinking there were WMDs there the whole time, and been lauded the world over. *If they could do 9/11, why couldn't they do that easy scam in Iraq? *Maybe because they weren't lying in the first place?

Fire away.

Edit: Change 1 word about explanation for: corrected on page 3 of thread that pressure won't change solid to liquid, but it will still induce a phase change, just not a solid to liquid phase change, but instead a solid to different solid phase change (that's what writing at night will get you). This of course wouldn't result in the molten steel, but the adiabatic heating point still holds, as does alloying with other metals (mercury, aluminum) to lower the melting point.
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:58 PM #25
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Just one point, if the cables on a passenger lift
Fail, the lift chaches on a ratchet safety system.Somebody's been watching too many movies.
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:16 PM #26
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Yeah lol, that's pretty much the only hole in pullbang's argument.
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:19 PM #27
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Another thing that bothers me about the loose change video, is that they are comparing these crashes to a bunch of different ACCIDENTS that have happened. When a plane is going down, the pilot isn't just going to go balls out into the ground, he is going to do every single thing he can to try to slow the plane down before it hits. Flaps all the way down, engines off (if they didn't die already), slow. These terrorists in the planes were intentionally hitting a target. This means they were most likely at full throttle, gaining the most air speed they possibly could. This will make a HUGE difference in the debris that is left in the accident. 150mph into a swamp = big chunks, engines, tail sections etc etc. 550mph into concrete with basically a steel mesh re bar cheese grater inside = not much left.
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Old 07-12-2008, 03:55 PM #28
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunsimon0077
Just one point, if the cables on a passenger lift
Fail, the lift chaches on a ratchet safety system.Somebody's been watching too many movies. *
Not quite. If the elevator falls too fast, the pulley at the top is designed to stop it and the subsequent tension in the cable can invoke catches. However if the cable is directly severed, all hell breaks loose. Maybe some modern elevators have alternate safeguards, but from what I've read (and no, I'm no authority on elevators here so please correct me if I'm mistaken) if the cable severs between the elevator car and the pulley, you're pretty much screwed.

If you want to pick a fight with pullbang's argument, mine would be the comment about pressure and phase changes. The example of increasing pressure changing a solid to a liquid is an anomalous situation with water/ice only. Typically, an increase in pressure would result in things happening the other way around (liquid to solid). That's only for a situation where the only change is an increase in pressure though. As he says, a large increase in pressure likely means a large increase in temperature too, and THAT is important since in a situation like this the transition from solid to liquid by temperature would affect things moreso than pressure will force liquid to solid.


Not quite on topic, but one thing that's puzzling me: amk, lets say those blurry rectangles that appeared for a few frames were missles. Simple question: why? If I were planning a conspiracy like that, I know I sure as hell wouldn't load up a boeing with missles. A passenger jet flying around with missles glued to is sides is a pretty comical image to me - something I wouldn't mind seeing in real life, but I just don't see what relevance it has here.

Same thing with some of these theories I hear. They're fun and interesting to think about. A mystery or conspiracy always spice up the situation - great components for a work of fiction. At the end of the day though, I remember I live in the real world so I pull out my Occham's razor and use it to cut down the BS.
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Old 07-12-2008, 04:01 PM #29
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

why is it so hard for people to just say "Dude it got jacked, and then flown into a building" thats it. nothing else, no conspiracy.

it doesnt matter if it had a missile or not, it was hijacked by somebody or even if it was planned i doubt you could fly a boeing with a missile....a BIGfcknhuge missile, just like that. and having a complot with the pilot and everybody else that boarded the plane.

when you're about to board a plane you can SEE the plane

people would've noticed a MISSILE on it...and i dont think they'd deploy such a missile during mid air.
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Old 07-12-2008, 05:46 PM #30
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

If the windows were blowing out because of pressure, why one window a a time?? It would be more logical that maybe 2, 3, or a whole row of windows go out due to pressure. And, since when do blowing windows cause little clouds? Last I checked you get ONLY a rain of glass shards...


Niko, you're missing the point. if there WAS something hotglued to the plane, then there were no passengers on that plane in the first place, or whoever was on knew what they were doing.

and if elevators fell all the way to the ground and boom catastrophe, whats with all these stories about firemen saving people in the building, out of elevators etc. ??


so many questions un-answered...

The one thing that justifies why a "terrorist" would drive a plane into a building is the COMMON misunderstanding (due to propaganda) (yea, Americans are swimming in OCEANS of propaganda, and the best thing is most dont know it) that ""dem arabs believe if they kill themselves they go to heaven"". Find me ONE place in ANY part of the qur'aan or the prophets sayings that says "if you kill yourself you go to heaven!!!"


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Old 07-12-2008, 06:08 PM #31
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amkdeath
If the windows were blowing out because of pressure, why one window a a time?? It would be more logical that maybe 2, 3, or a whole row of windows go out due to pressure. And, since when do blowing windows cause little clouds? Last I checked you get ONLY a rain of glass shards...


Niko, you're missing the point. if there WAS something hotglued to the plane, then there were no passengers on that plane in the first place, or whoever was on knew what they were doing.

and if elevators fell all the way to the ground and boom catastrophe, whats with all these stories about firemen saving people in the building, out of elevators etc. ??


so many questions un-answered...

The one thing that justifies why a "terrorist" *would drive a plane into a building is the COMMON misunderstanding (due to propaganda) (yea, Americans are swimming in OCEANS of propaganda, and the best thing is most dont know it) that ""dem arabs believe if they kill themselves they go to heaven"". Find me ONE place in ANY part of the qur'aan or the prophets sayings that says "if you kill yourself you go to heaven!!!"


regards,

amk
One window at a time is still enough to relieve the pressure. If a chain breaks, do all the links break? Nope, just the weakest link, or in this case, the weakest window. It's dust, not shards, likely because it's tempered. Break normal glass, yes, it's shards. But (materials science here again) tempered glass has lots of stored energy in the form of stress, and once it breaks in one place, the whole thing explodes into a million tiny pieces. That's just how tempered glass works.

It's been proven time and again, that it was nothing but the planes that were initially identified. Pieces were found, phone calls made, etc. etc.

Each building had over 100 elevators. A few, or even half of them, being cut/failling still leaves plenty for firemen to use.

And that's not how I understood it anyway: dying in battle is a honorable thing in pretty much every western civilization, and a lot of eastern civilizations too. This was nothing more than dying in battle.
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:32 PM #32
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Default Re: WTC: Sabotage? Conspiracy? Neither?

Just a forewarning amkdeath - I respond to your comments, so if you are gunna post again on this thread, you had better well respond to mine:

amk, its not fair to say other people are close minded to your ideas and then stay close minded to theirs.

Sure you can throw a slew of very minor, very inconsistent things at us that might not make perfect sense on the surface. I'm working in a nanotech lab over the summer, and even on such small scales I see things that initially baffle me every day. You're talking on the macro scale of two very complex, very massive things colliding and then trying to pick apart evey little micro detail that might not immediately make sense. I'm not surprised there are lots of little hard to answer questions, I'd be calling it a conspiracy if there weren't!

The problem I have with most "conspiracy theorists" is they won't listen. They'll come up with a bunch of half-assed excuses that don't really mean anything, but they'll pretend are clear indications of a conspiracy. Then if someone who clearly knows more about the issue comes along and refutes them, they just pull a bunch of other random junk out of their... hat. They ignore the fact that they clearly made a mistake and fight tooth-and-nail to refuse to admit it. At the moment, you're doing just that and at least to my eyes, that's one of the quickest ways to lose credibility.

As I've said before on these forums, I'm a man of Occham's razor. I have never once 100% written off the possibility that 9/11 is a giant conspiracy. However all the evidence I see leads me to believe that its a one in a million chance. When I have those other 999,999 thousands telling me its simply like it seems, you can guess where my opinions will lie. Little picky things like the order in which clouds of particles blew out of windows is hardly the persuasive macro-scale picture you need to paint to change my mind.

So yeah. I don't mind that you have a contrasting opinion - its good that there are still people thinking and questioning so we don't someday end up with such serious conspiracies. If you're gunna waste our time though by throwing a bunch of little details at us; refusing to admit when you've been refuted - just ignoring the hard spent time of the refuter and throwing out a bunch more little oddities, its EXTREMELY RUDE AND DISRESPECTIFUL to the thousands of other people who are equally as well meaning as you and willing to devote their time in hopes of a DISCUSSION, not a one-sided argument on the issue.


Now my response to your last point:
"The one thing that justifies why a "terrorist" *would drive a plane into a building is the COMMON misunderstanding (due to propaganda) (yea, Americans are swimming in OCEANS of propaganda, and the best thing is most dont know it) that ""dem arabs believe if they kill themselves they go to heaven"". Find me ONE place in ANY part of the qur'aan or the prophets sayings that says "if you kill yourself you go to heaven!!!"
"

Not that I'm an expert on the issue (very far from in fact), but as I've heard countless times and come to understand it, the texts indeed do not say that. However, that has not stopped people from interpreting it that way or people from abusing the notion to get people to do things they wouldn't normally do. I hear news of suicide bombers nearly daily it seems, and while its not impossible, I'd be hard-pressed to believe they are all just a continuation of the conspiracy and there really are no people willing to die in the name of a cause. I myself can't be so level-headed as to claim I've never felt tempted to take drastic measures for a cause before, and I'm sure you can't either. I may not be at the point of flying a plane into a building for a cause, but with so many people and so many injustices in this world, I have no trouble believing its possible to find people willing to make such a sacrifice towards something they believe in (IE. how you are willing to stand up so vehemently for your opinions on 9/11)
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