Old 02-19-2016, 12:12 AM #17
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

The shooting down of malaysian airlines flight MH17 is a big issue in the netherlands, as it departed from amsterdam and the majority of passengers/casualties were dutch.

Sadly it has still not determined who fired that missile. Ukraine claimes its radar installations where inoperative at the time or destroyed shortly after, but there is no eveidence for this (and quite some against it).

Russia was willing to share radar data but for some reason the investigating comittee didn't even ask for that data.

America provided some data from spy sats, but the (temporal) resolution of that is insufficient to make any conclusions.

I think MH17 was shot down by ukrainian separatists that had an incomplete and outdated BUK system lacking secondary radar, and believed they were shooting down ukrainian military aircraft. When they discovered they'd shot down a civilian airliner they obviously wanted to hide all evidence of this.

This will remain a blame game though: Obviously the guy triggering the launch of the missile is directly responsible, but one of the major accusasations is that ukraine did not close its airspace at the time, despite being aware that rebels were shooting down planes at high altitude at the time.


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Old 02-19-2016, 12:15 AM #18
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

^^ So sad for the innocent people on that plane!!
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Old 02-19-2016, 12:49 AM #19
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

It's like MH370 that disappeared in the ocean, yet engine telemetry showed if flew a long way and passenger cell phones were not answered.

The theory is the pilot flew up high and suffocated the passengers and crew and never said a single word as he flew for hours to it's disappearance in the ocean.

You do know todays planes take off by computer control, fly by computer control and land by computer control, why the pilot said nothing is what really is hard to understand, unless he suffocated as well or the radio was shut off remotely.

However some high tech passengers were on that plane. Just like much of our high tech students come from overseas much technology is being developed elsewhere.

This may be BS or maybe not, sometimes a bit of the trust is hidden in the forest, try to watch this 8 minutes of video.

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Old 02-19-2016, 12:49 AM #20
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

Or mostly for their family and friends. The passengers on the plane would have died due to lack of oxygen which isn't the worst way to go.

I flew out of amsterdam a few weeks after and remember the sea of flowers at the airport left by those that lost people in that shooting.

The horrible thing to me about it all is that someone, somehow, shot down the wrong plane. This could have been prevented if they even bothered to look at free services like flightradar to double check there were no passenger overhead. This plane had a full ads-b transponder so should have been very visible even without any radar equipment.

I don't doubt that those rebels were convinced they were aiming at a ukranian military aircraft, but they should have put it more effort to ensure that.
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Old 02-19-2016, 12:57 AM #21
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

MH370 is a different story really. It seems like at least one of the pilots took an effort to disable systems on that flight, but beyond that little is definitely known about its eventual faith. Upside is that there is wreckage somewhere so we may ultimately find out if it is found.
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Old 02-19-2016, 04:58 AM #22
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.



The following might be bunk, but truthfully, today, it wouldn't surprise me if it were the hard cold truth:

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Old 02-19-2016, 04:31 PM #23
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
The shooting down of malaysian airlines flight MH17 is a big issue in the netherlands, as it departed from amsterdam and the majority of passengers/casualties were dutch.

Sadly it has still not determined who fired that missile. Ukraine claimes its radar installations where inoperative at the time or destroyed shortly after, but there is no eveidence for this (and quite some against it).

Russia was willing to share radar data but for some reason the investigating comittee didn't even ask for that data.

America provided some data from spy sats, but the (temporal) resolution of that is insufficient to make any conclusions.

I think MH17 was shot down by ukrainian separatists that had an incomplete and outdated BUK system lacking secondary radar, and believed they were shooting down ukrainian military aircraft. When they discovered they'd shot down a civilian airliner they obviously wanted to hide all evidence of this.

This will remain a blame game though: Obviously the guy triggering the launch of the missile is directly responsible, but one of the major accusasations is that ukraine did not close its airspace at the time, despite being aware that rebels were shooting down planes at high altitude at the time.
I don't know if you are aware of this, that there is some thought that Putin might have been the intended target: Putin intended target?
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:15 PM #24
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

Benm,

I too am saddened by the loss of life. What concerns me is the willingness of the passengers to trust the governments and the airlines.

Let me suggest this idea. Assume that you are smarter than the people that run the airline and the military and the government. You will be willing to delegate some responsibility for the operation of these systems, but not because they are so complex and impenetrable that you have no choice. Does it seem that boarding an airplane that was going to cross through a war zone where aircraft were being shot AT ANY ALTITUDE was a good idea?

Europe is crashing and burning (metaphorically) because the citizens have been trained from birth to comply with manipulative leaders. It is going to have to become so bad that primitive instincts for survival will be the only thing that will wake these populations to the threat and the result will be savage, civil war.

Merkel and her cronies need to be removed, right now if not sooner. Responsible, self directing individuals need to rise up in these European nations and replace the leadership, peacefully if at all possible, but I doubt that this will always be possible. Other than little children and the very elderly, no one is an innocent victim. We are all responsible, to some extent for our lot.
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:49 PM #25
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

That's something we used to hear during a war.
There are no innocent people during war, so before bombs are falling on our heads maybe we should keep our house in order, well get it back into order.

Because even though we try to keep up the appearance of minimizing civilian losses, don't expect those who come for what we owe to give a dam about us, the survivors can dig through the trash and live in the slums as long as they serve a purpose, otherwise less soft hearted people who know where their bread is buttered will exterminate like roaches anyone without value, and they don't want to mix blood with us either.
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Old 02-20-2016, 01:09 AM #26
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

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Benm,
Let me suggest this idea. Assume that you are smarter than the people that run the airline and the military and the government. You will be willing to delegate some responsibility for the operation of these systems, but not because they are so complex and impenetrable that you have no choice. Does it seem that boarding an airplane that was going to cross through a war zone where aircraft were being shot AT ANY ALTITUDE was a good idea?
This depend on the conflict going on on the ground. People shooting at eachother with AK's or even tanks do not pose any danger to airliners at cruise altitude.

Passengers were probably not even aware that this flight would go over the ukraine at all. While this is the shortest route plotted on a great circle, it would appear to be way too far north if you draw a line on a mercator projection map between amsterdam and kuala lumpur. Most people believe that a straight line on a map they are used to is the shortest route - and when driving it doesn't really matter.

Airlines do take precautions and fly around conflict area's with risk though. About 2 weeks ago i flew from dubai to amsterdam, a route that would fly over syria if you take the shortest possible path.

Emirates took the precaution of flying around syria on that flight, despite that taking half an hour longer and use a lot more fuel. In this case it's sensible since there are warplanes in the area bombing syria and iraq, and possible ground to air systems to defend against them.

Shooting down an airliner at cruise altitude requires pretty specialized equipment though, it cannot be done with something like a shoulder mounted missile launcher. Just the rocket itself is over 2 stories tall, and only suitable for shooting down aircraft.

I'm sure this airliner was shot down by mistaken indentity - either for any ukranian military transport or a plane carrying Putin. What i find hard to forgive is how careless the operators must have been. They could have checked what was overhead using flightradar and such very easily and free of charge (MH17 had a fully blasting ADS-B transponder), but did not. And if you have the resources to provide a system like a
(partial) BUK 11, getting a laptop with internet access is no big additional resource.
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Old 02-20-2016, 01:31 AM #27
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

Shoulder fired missiles can and do take down aircraft.
Many are made for just that purpose.
Supposedly the older models don't have the range, but we have been arming rebels and pretty much the terrorist who are fighting Assad with more modern equipment.
Flight 317 was supposed to be too far for the older style manpad but the Russian BUK could have hit it and I heard captured radio of Russians claiming the hit, but that could be misinformation. We get lied to so much I don't know what to believe, the Russians never made an apology did they?
Here's the explanation.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukr...kraine-n158601
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Old 02-20-2016, 02:51 AM #28
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

Quote:
This depend on the conflict going on on the ground. People shooting at eachother with AK's or even tanks do not pose any danger to airliners at cruise altitude.

Passengers were probably not even aware that this flight would go over the ukraine at all. While this is the shortest route plotted on a great circle, it would appear to be way too far north if you draw a line on a mercator projection map between amsterdam and kuala lumpur. Most people believe that a straight line on a map they are used to is the shortest route - and when driving it doesn't really matter.
My very point is that they should have been aware.

Quote:
Emirates took the precaution of flying around syria on that flight, despite that taking half an hour longer and use a lot more fuel. In this case it's sensible since there are warplanes in the area bombing syria and iraq, and possible ground to air systems to defend against them.
Were you aware of this precaution prior to boarding this flight? If so, then you are supporting my point and you're one of those that will be ready to begin this return to sanity. If not, then you are playing Russian roulette with real bullets and maybe real Russian bullets for that matter.

Stinger missiles that were developed in the 1990's could reach 26,000feet and that is 20 years ago. Amateur rockets can reach Mach 3 and over 100,000 feet. Now, that's with little payload, but a 100kg mass at Mach 3 is lethal and that's an AMATEUR rocket. I wouldn't bet these combatants can't hit an airliner at altitude.

Citizens have to stop wishing that everything will be alright. That it's not so bad, these are people just like us, all they want is a nice little home and a steady job... oh and a Dutch girlfriend.
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Old 02-20-2016, 03:16 AM #29
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

Well, from what I've seen of the Russian people, and I've been over there a half dozen times, they really are far more like Americans than many countries, certainly far more so than many cultures around the world.
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Old 02-20-2016, 04:01 AM #30
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

Russia wants Assad in power so they can control him, and we are in their back yard arming terrorist, I find myself rooting for ....well Barry is only hurting America, he turned loose half a dozen nasty terrorist for one deserter, he just cut NY anti terror fund by 300 million, Iran WOW just fricking WOW, the list goes on and on, if the world used to hate us at least we had some allies, but Barry has set us back everywhere, cut our military in half, opened trade with CUBA.

Why do you think gas is so cheap? Yes we are fracking, but Russian oil can't profit at the current price, and we are arming people who yell ALLAH ACKBAR after they blow up Russian tanks, with shoulder launched missiles that sound like HE going off, very modern weapons.

I can't find the video, it's been pulled. There are others of ISIS riding our MRAP trucks and carrying out night vision.

I like the Russians, I think we could get along, but if Russia was arming terrorist in Mexico who were attacking us would we be so tolerant?

It could have been one of our shoulder fired missiles that took down 317, fired by the people Russia is fighting with that we are arming, I can't be sure, but I don't believe anything we are told.

There's a lot of misinformation.

This is I think a scud missile dump, but the firefly's like radiation hitting ccd pixels are odd, they move with the camera....strange, there are many views of this on ytube

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Old 02-20-2016, 05:51 AM #31
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

Our media keeps beating up on Putin, but from what I see, he is doing the right thing (edit) in Syria:

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Old 02-20-2016, 08:37 PM #32
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Default Re: What's going on around the world.

I was watching this play out in youtube uploads by radicals on the ground who were shooting live video and everyone's chanting Allah Akbar before I ever heard people saying what I had already seen.
I really am afraid we are already too far gone, I hope not. I hope we still have a fighting chance, but don't know who to trust.
There are bits and pieces you can pick out of what's not being said as much, find the common threads.

It's like when the Chemical weapons deal was our rally cry and Putin met with Barry and said...OK there yours, I will round them up and hand them over to the USA.
Then you see the presidential motorcade leaving in a hurry, Putin outsmarted Obama and do you know who I was applauding, I have to stop and pick myself up off the floor.
Trump made reference to 911 in a debate, as if to say Bush knew of it being a false flag, is Trump bat sh1t crazy or could it really be true?
Pearl Harbor I believe we knew was coming and moved out only our carriers, we did go to the moon, 911 I have never wanted to believe could be orchestrated, but Bin Laden was not captured, they could have brought him in, but no, he was killed...you know we used to back him with weapons.





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It stuck out on my mind that Hillary was saying she would be proud to appoint Obama to the supreme court just a week or 2 ago before Scalia's death.....why was that even in her mind, little things like that stand out too me, so often coincidences are not.

Funny Scalia had NO autopsy!

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