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Old 06-02-2016, 06:32 PM #129
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post

As for mars actually being made habitable, unless something very significant is found on Mars to allow terraofrming, it's not a likely outcome.
That would be one of mankinds greatest achievements to completely transform an alien planet! We also need to take into account possible viruses contaminating Mars surface, no?

-Alex


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Old 06-02-2016, 06:41 PM #130
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Viruses/bacteria probably won't be a big problem where a mostly barren rock like Mars is concerned, but anything is possible.
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:45 PM #131
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Originally Posted by Hap View Post
That would be one of mankinds greatest achievements to completely transform an alien planet! We also need to take into account possible viruses contaminating Mars surface, no?

-Alex
I think it's more reasonable to assume terraforming Mars is almost practically impossible. Really, making the whole planet livable would require an artificial magnetosphere and either regular importation of atmospheric gases, a bubble around the planet, or gravity modification. A method to collect more solar energy than on the surface might also be necessary.

Viruses and bacteria likely wouldn't be too big of a risk, but research would be warranted before doing such a project.

Venus might be a better bet if we could find a way to sequester and filter most of the atmosphere, but that's no simple task either.

Other than those two, terraforming any other body in the solar system isn't even worth considering since Mercury is too close to the Sun, and anything past the asteroid belt won't get enough sunlight to support an Earth-like environment.

Like I said in the beginning of the thread, we probably can't expect large space colonies without interstellar space travel.
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Old 06-02-2016, 07:19 PM #132
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

I agree with Rivem on large-scale colonization not happening until interstellar travel is a possibility. I think we should be doing more research into FTL technology and less on terraforming planets. If you could travel faster than light, all of a sudden hundreds of potentially habitable planets become available to us, and colonization would be a much easier effort. I would love to see more work being done in that field.
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Old 06-02-2016, 07:49 PM #133
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Has there been any evidence of any particles traveling faster than light, that we are aware of at this time? I remember reading about a 2012 experiment where one wave is forced within another or something like, that, and about quantum entanglement.

The reason I bring this up, is we keep fixating on the need to travel there, but there is no need if we can send drone avatars out to explore space instead.

Terraforming is also way beyond our technical means, I mean crap we can't even get it right on our own planet yet
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:55 PM #134
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Has there been any evidence of any particles traveling faster than light, that we are aware of at this time? I remember reading about a 2012 experiment where one wave is forced within another or something like, that, and about quantum entanglement.

The reason I bring this up, is we keep fixating on the need to travel there, but there is no need if we can send drone avatars out to explore space instead.

Terraforming is also way beyond our technical means, I mean crap we can't even get it right on our own planet yet
Well we really need to get faster!!! Voyager 1 which was launched in the 1970's and used Jupiters gravity took 40 years to get to Pluto, that's nothing when compared to the whole of space!

-Alex
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:07 PM #135
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Has there been any evidence of any particles traveling faster than light, that we are aware of at this time? I remember reading about a 2012 experiment where one wave is forced within another or something like, that, and about quantum entanglement.

The reason I bring this up, is we keep fixating on the need to travel there, but there is no need if we can send drone avatars out to explore space instead.

Terraforming is also way beyond our technical means, I mean crap we can't even get it right on our own planet yet
No FTL particles have been found that I'm aware of - there is the theoretical "Tachyon". There was that neutrino experiment a few years back that at first appeared to have found FTL neutrinos, but that ended up being the result of an equipment fault or some such.

Nothing in travels FTL with Quantum entanglement, not the particle, not the information. It's kinda silly that they use the word "teleportation" at all. I prefer "spooky action at a distance".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hap View Post
Well we really need to get faster!!! Voyager 1 which was launched in the 1970's and used Jupiters gravity took 40 years to get to Pluto, that's nothing when compared to the whole of space!

-Alex
Voyager only took 12.5 years to travel the distance to Pluto - but didn't actually fly past. New Horizons managed it in ~9 years. Both Voyagers are well past Pluto now.


Voyager I is now ~20,094,400,000KM from earth after ~40 years - ~37 light hours round trip - currently travelling at 62,140Km/h - EDIT: Sorry, that was the max speed, but I don't imagine it slowed down much if any.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:18 PM #136
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

I'm always surprised by how willing people are to embrace the idea of Star Trek style teleportation. Except that there so many hurdles, and ethical issues associated with it, some even explored in Star Trek.

The way Star Trek teleporters work is to deconstruct the very atoms of our bodies, convert them to pure energy, and data, and transmit THAT to another location to in many cases spontaneously be reconstructed at a distance somehow. Alternatively only the data is transmitted and you're reconstituted from matter/energy at the destination.

In both cases You're literally signing up to die each time. Makes spooky action at a distance look like a far more pleasant alternative.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:25 PM #137
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
I'm always surprised by how willing people are to embrace the idea of Star Trek style teleportation. Except that there so many hurdles, and ethical issues associated with it, some even explored in Star Trek.

The way Star Trek teleporters work is to deconstruct the very atoms of our bodies, convert them to pure energy, and data, and transmit THAT to another location to in many cases spontaneously be reconstructed at a distance somehow. Alternatively only the data is transmitted and you're reconstituted from matter/energy at the destination.

In both cases You're literally signing up to die each time. Makes spooky action at a distance look like a far more pleasant alternative.

Ahh, but we don't know that for sure, and if we invented transporters like that we'd probably still have a hard time figuring it out - unless we develop a far better understanding of consciousness. Transporters in the Star Trek universe take into account information about the matter on a quantum level too as far as I know - perhaps that'd make all the difference when it comes to consciousness. It's still far beyond our current scientific understanding either way.

The person that shows up on the other end would be you as far as that person is concerned - with all your memories and thoughts, and to everyone else there would be no difference either. But would it really be you or would it just be a copy of you - would you die on the transporter or would you "wake up" at the destination? Impossible to say.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:30 PM #138
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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But would it really be you or would it just be a copy of you - would you die on the transporter or would you "wake up" at the destination? Impossible to say.
That's exactly the thing that kept me awake for hours after watching StarTrek TNG for the first time.

It doesn't help that in that universe there were cases of transporter replication, and of people being merged. For example, a clone of Riker was accidentally created, and was a fully functional being with all the same knowledge and abilities.

I guess the reason I keep circling back to this, is the idea of using a teleportation system seems crazy to me, but the idea of being present in another location by means of some kind of interface, completely acceptable, and preferable. Even now, surgeries are already being performed remotely.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:32 PM #139
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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No FTL particles have been found that I'm aware of - there is the theoretical "Tachyon". There was that neutrino experiment a few years back that at first appeared to have found FTL neutrinos, but that ended up being the result of an equipment fault or some such.

Nothing in travels FTL with Quantum entanglement, not the particle, not the information. It's kinda silly that they use the word "teleportation" at all. I prefer "spooky action at a distance".
Tachyon and whether or not entanglement can carry data are some seriously controversial subjects. Every physics professor I've spoken to says probably no tachyons and entanglement almost definitely can't be used like that, so you're right on track.

Not that quantum physics is already completely useless for FTL research, but our knowledge of it isn't mature enough to tell yet. String theory isn't there yet either.

Relativity is what we should be looking at for now. It may expand into particle physics and string theory further along in the investigation though.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:36 PM #140
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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That's exactly the thing that kept me awake for hours after watching StarTrek TNG for the first time.

It doesn't help that in that universe there were cases of transporter replication, and of people being merged. For example, a clone of Riker was accidentally created, and was a fully functional being with all the same knowledge and abilities.

I guess the reason I keep circling back to this, is the idea of using a teleportation system seems crazy to me, but the idea of being present in another location by means of some kind of interface, completely acceptable, and preferable. Even now, surgeries are already being performed remotely.

I have exactly the same problem and have thought of the same example you provided with Will Riker and Thomas Riker- it's difficult to wrap your head around. Of course it's all fiction, but it's an interesting "thought experiment".

Oddly enough, I actually read a discussion about that exact episode the other day on /r/DaystromInstitute/ - think it was this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromIns...ter_to_create/

I like the remote idea better too - good suggestion - I don't think I'd ever be up for using a transporter (Much like several characters in Star Trek, Dr. Pulaski comes to mind!) - the thought that it'd kill me and create a copy would always be in the back of my mind.

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Originally Posted by Rivem View Post
Tachyon and whether or not entanglement can carry data are some seriously controversial subjects. Every physics professor I've spoken to says probably no tachyons and entanglement almost definitely can't be used like that, so you're right on track.

Not that quantum physics is already completely useless for FTL research, but our knowledge of it isn't mature enough to tell yet. String theory isn't there yet either.

Relativity is what we should be looking at for now. It may expand into particle physics and string theory further along in the investigation though.
Yep, as far as we understand entanglement can't carry data - at least not FTL - and tachyons are still theoretical at best. There are plenty of things that were thought impossible right up until we actually did the experiment and proved otherwise though, plenty of times throughout history people have been considered crazy for their theories - until we developed a better understanding and realized that something we thought was impossible as actually entirely possible. It's happened even in the last century - pretty sure it even happened with relativity.

We've barely scratched the surface of what physics has to offer us as far as I'm concerned. Our current knowledge is likely just a drop in the ocean. Every question answered tends to raise more questions.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:49 PM #141
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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No FTL particles have been found that I'm aware of - there is the theoretical "Tachyon". There was that neutrino experiment a few years back that at first appeared to have found FTL neutrinos, but that ended up being the result of an equipment fault or some such.

Nothing in travels FTL with Quantum entanglement, not the particle, not the information. It's kinda silly that they use the word "teleportation" at all. I prefer "spooky action at a distance".



Voyager only took 12.5 years to travel the distance to Pluto - but didn't actually fly past. New Horizons managed it in ~9 years. Both Voyagers are well past Pluto now.


Voyager I is now ~20,094,400,000KM from earth after ~40 years - ~37 light hours round trip - currently travelling at 62,140Km/h - EDIT: Sorry, that was the max speed, but I don't imagine it slowed down much if any.
9 years sorry

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Old 06-03-2016, 12:55 AM #142
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

As for the Mars story: Terraforming the planet seems impossible, but if additional structures could be built from material on mars, it could be less cramped than a space station. Obviously mars does have soil, but i'm not sure to what degree that could be used to build airtight, pressure-resistant structures or how much extra material from earth would be needed to do that.

The risk from virusses or such already present on mars seems pretty low - there is no evidence of any life there, and anything on the surface has been frozen, dried, irradiated and such to a point where it would be likely to be viable. Even then it would have to be compatible to earth biology, which would be unlikely if it developed on its own, but likely in some kind of panspermia scenario.


Teleporters are things from science fiction entirely. The heisenberg-compensators do not exist.

If the technology roughly works like what is displayed in star trek they could easily by re-configured as replicators, allowing you to xerox people has often as you wish... you could even have a 'print 1000 copies' function on one that does exactly that.

Interestingly it could have a very nice 'safe game' function too: just scan but not destroy the departing passenger, saving the scan in memory (which must me large enough to do so for the system to work).

If i got severly injured tomorrow i could just print of tonights saved version of myself, and euthenise tomorrows me to make sure there are no duplicates - it would just be an 'undo' for any mishap, including accidental death.

Even crazier, it could be used to make longer term backups, perhaps restoring a person before they developed cancer, reloading and saving a version of them 10 years ago. Or be 10 years younger in the present era for entertainment.

I don't believe a teleporter like that can ever exist, but if it can, it would fundamentally change what it is to be human, and individual, or even just alive.
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:33 AM #143
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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I don't believe a teleporter like that can ever exist, but if it can, it would fundamentally change what it is to be human, and individual, or even just alive.
There is a book I read a few years back, from the 80's or 90's I think, I remember it stuck out because the movie Surrogates was also playing at the time.

Can't for the life of me remember the name, or author, but the premise of it was that technology had been discovered that allowed the creation of clay(? putty) temporary clones, blanks, that could be imprinted from the mind of user, to go out into the world, and take care of tedious jobs.

These temporary clone blanks quickly degraded, and had varying levels of ability, with color denoting the general quality level. Green being worst, and platinum being a top end model that could last for while.

The most interesting premise of the book to me was that these temp clones could then be returned to the originator, and the memories were uploaded back into the mind of the original. This in effect allowed people to live many many lives, and to do things they would never otherwise consider. Want to swim with sharks and punch one in the nose? Go for it! Want to pet a bear? Have fun. Even if the body is destroyed the memories are stored to be uploaded back into the original human being.

Really wish I could remember the name of the book. If anyone knows what it, please post.
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Old 06-03-2016, 05:07 AM #144
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Sweet, this has become a sticky!

Another possible explanation is that once a species grows too advanced, they can't control themselves and eventually lead to their destruction & extinction. If we humans already have that ability, it wouldn't surprise me what some highly advance civilization can do!

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