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Old 11-16-2016, 12:51 AM #465
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
My first guess was it was a type of photon pressure but this is orders of magnitude above the thrust of a photon rocket of the same power.

I'm hedging my bets that the thrust is produced by some effect on the Higgs Field or other Space/Time effect.
I cannot be simply photon pressure indeed - you could achieve that by just opening up one side of the resonator cavity and microwaves would shoot out propelling you in the opposite direction. This would at best result in a force -far- lower than described.

I suspect it has to do with some interaction with atmosphere, even a very dilute one like in a good vacuum chamber. Launching off ionized air would easily make this amount of thrust possible, and if you design for it quite a lot more.

One example of such a device is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv__Zln-h5Q

There is some BS about anti-gravity surrounding these contraptions, but they basically work by ionizing air and blasting the ions down at reasonable speed (25 kV or so), resulting in upwards forces many magnitudes larger than either photon rockets or this new EM drive concept.

These 'lifters' actually do work in a modest vacuum too. If you pull pressure down to 0.01 atm or something they still fly.


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Old 11-16-2016, 01:32 AM #466
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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I cannot be simply photon pressure indeed - you could achieve that by just opening up one side of the resonator cavity and microwaves would shoot out propelling you in the opposite direction. This would at best result in a force -far- lower than described.

I suspect it has to do with some interaction with atmosphere, even a very dilute one like in a good vacuum chamber. Launching off ionized air would easily make this amount of thrust possible, and if you design for it quite a lot more.

One example of such a device is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv__Zln-h5Q

There is some BS about anti-gravity surrounding these contraptions, but they basically work by ionizing air and blasting the ions down at reasonable speed (25 kV or so), resulting in upwards forces many magnitudes larger than either photon rockets or this new EM drive concept.

These 'lifters' actually do work in a modest vacuum too. If you pull pressure down to 0.01 atm or something they still fly.
The paper quotes a vacuum spec of 8 x 10 -6 Torr "or better" for all testing

Outer space 1 × 10 −6 to < 1 × 10 −17
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:05 AM #467
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

At the pressure the 'lifters' stop working, but those a relatively low power devices producing a lot of force per watt of electrical input (those things in the video run off 25 kV, but probably draw in the order of 1 watt of power).

One concern i have it might be something else, even outgassing of atmosphere that adhered to the metal or even the metal evaporating from being heated by the micowaves.

The problem is that the thrust is just SO tiny for the amount of power produced. It's something that is quite bulky, uses as much power as a small drown, but produces an (additional to its own gravitational pull on earh) amount of force that lifts a grain of sugar.

I think this has to be proven in space, where one of these devices can operate for a long period of time. One test would be to set it just to keep increasing it's orbit, powered by solar panels. Downside is that this would have to be tested at a very high orbit (probably beyond geostationary) for the thrust to overcome the drag of the solar panels to power it.
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Old 12-11-2016, 05:32 PM #468
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Hey guys, just as a reminder, the Geminid meteor shower is going to peak December 13th. It's one of the best regular showers, but it will have some interference from moonlight.
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Old 01-13-2017, 05:22 PM #469
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Hey guys, Venus is at its greatest eastern elongation tonight, so you should have the best view of it right after nightfall.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:04 PM #470
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

As I'm typing this I have Venus right above our cruise ship!

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Old 01-13-2017, 10:07 PM #471
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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Hey guys, Venus is at its greatest eastern elongation tonight, so you should have the best view of it right after nightfall.
Thanks for the heads-up Rivem.
I'll have to check it out (and maybe fire a laser beam or two at it).



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Old 01-14-2017, 01:07 AM #472
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

It's quite bright indeed. Since i live high up and have a west and south view i'm quite used to seeing it by now.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:28 PM #473
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Another relevant Kurzgesagt video:

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Old 02-01-2017, 10:48 PM #474
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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Another relevant Kurzgesagt video:

That one seemed a little underwhelming. It just explained the problem, and didn't really propose any great solutions to it. It basically just said what we already know, which is that space travel is really, REALLY, REALLY hard.
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:56 PM #475
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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That one seemed a little underwhelming. It just explained the problem, and didn't really propose any great solutions to it. It basically just said what we already know, which is that space travel is really, REALLY, REALLY hard.
Pretty much. Though, I do like how it explains the basics of rocket science and why rockets are the way they are. That's pretty much the current nature of the field though. Not much huge innovation any more, and not any reasonable/foreseeable alternatives yet.

Edit: Just to throw in some advancement in rocket technology, one of the smallest orbital rocket launches was recently attempted. It ultimately failed due to communications errors, but success could have dramatically reduced costs for microsatellite launches.
Article: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017...icom-1-launch/
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:06 PM #476
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

I do wonder if electromagnetic launchers might eventually be useful for getting payload to orbit. Obviously the problems include the death and destruction of anything you launch due to the G-forces, but maybe they could be used to fling metals and other raw materials to orbit. Once in orbit they could be manufactured into the end-product on site.
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:28 PM #477
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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I do wonder if electromagnetic launchers might eventually be useful for getting payload to orbit. Obviously the problems include the death and destruction of anything you launch due to the G-forces, but maybe they could be used to fling metals and other raw materials to orbit. Once in orbit they could be manufactured into the end-product on site.
Honestly, if the commercial space industry ever really gets to the point where it's performing the vast majority of a much larger array of space operations without governments, people will probably be the only major cargo carried up to space. It would honestly be much more efficient if we could just manufacture all the long haul spacecraft in space from materials sourced in space.

Otherwise, I think any space construction up to that point will still be done with prefabricated components coming up from Earth instead of raw materials to be utilized up there.

Now, the EM launching is a possibly feasible launch method for other things. The main concern is as you say, the acceleration would have to be too high for most useful payloads.

That could be remedied by making the launcher extremely long at the expense of aim. I think there are actually reports out there talking about how long it would have to be for a safe human launch, and it's somewhere along the order of all the way from sea level to the peak of a very tall mountain.

Presumably, it's be much cheaper in the long run than rockets as long as it launched into useful orbits.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:14 PM #478
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

It would not really matter what propulsion system you use for launching people 'cannon style' into space: It could be EM but just as well be powered by compressed gas or even some pulley/belt system that runs along the length.

Building something like that will be a monumental task, but then again, so was building the LHC at CERN, and that worked out well
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:49 PM #479
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

SpaceX made history today. First launch and landing of a reusable orbital class booster.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/847578231808991232
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Last edited by diachi; 03-30-2017 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:26 PM #480
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by diachi View Post
SpaceX made history today. First launch and landing of a reusable orbital class booster.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/847578231808991232
Thanks for sharing diachi! Perhaps this will lead to way to cheaper space travel so we can simply re-use obital vehicles instead of having to create new ones every time

-Alex
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515nm: Generic "Laser Pointer-515P-10" Pen 12mW
473nm: CNI GLP-473 6mW
450nm: Z-Bolt BLP-5-S Pointer 6mW
405nm: Generic "Laser Pointer" Pen 35mW



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