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Old 05-23-2016, 07:42 PM #33
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Originally Posted by Skans View Post
No interstellar space travel for humans. Ever. Robotic ships, maybe but I doubt it. Why?
1. Too slow, even if large matter could miraculously approach the speed of light, which it can't....and won't.
2. Requires way, way way too much energy to do this in the span of a human lifetime.
3. "Warp speed" is Star Trek B.S.....might as well be called Bull-Crap speed, at least in this universe. "Bull-Crap factor 4, engage!"
4. Transporters - more complete B.S. Ain't ever going to happen. EVER! And, even it were possible, are you going to step into a machine that kills you by converting you into energy? You might as well let a Lion eat you, let it run 100 miles and then poop you out - there you go, you were just "transported" 100 miles - hope you enjoyed your trip!
5. And, let's say you survive "suspended animation" and make it to another nearby star. Then what? You find a few dead planets orbiting a star; decide to land on one. Oooops, don't have enough energy to get off the cold dead rock. You die. Or, perhaps you make it off the cold dead rock - Oooops, forgot, there isn't anyone to prep your body for suspended animation for the flight back to earth - you die. Or you just die one of a million other different ways.

Sorry to be such a crumudgeon. The laws of physics is why I don't believe we have ever been visited by an alien race. There are probably plenty of intelligent species out there....its just that I don't believe they are any better at breaking the laws of physics than we are.
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:03 PM #34
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Hokus pokus impediment? This is so God Damn fucking arogant and insulting to 98% of the worlds population that I don't know what to say. I suggest you change your attitude right now.

In case you didn't know it, all discussion of religion is supposed to be confined to the religion thread! It has no place in this thread, it is completely off topic.

Alan
Was that a joke, you faint being offended then take the lords name in vein?

LOL you had me going for a second there, touché.

It was a reflection on a personal viewpoint, not judging those who adamantly believe or cling desperately to their magic security blankets.

I wanted to make a point with as few of words as possible about how my view had changed based on what I thought and have seen change over the years, and in a nutshell how religion provides a counterbalance to government.

I hate the backstabbers in government and pity the suicide bombers, because the bombers really believe they are doing gods work, they are actually brave and self sacrificing, just not too smart.

This connects to the topic because Americas financial well being is directly related to our ability to carry out a space program with the level of funding to see advancements in our lifetime, and I think that people in America living more and more without religion has affected our financial viability, actually no candidate ever won the Whitehouse without the catholic vote until post pedophile priest era. So it is connected.

p.s. If any of this truly offends you then please, take a deep breath and know that I have a strange sense of humor and I an not intending to offend, merely share a thought from my viewpoint that may differ in some areas from yours and agree in other areas.

If I have it all wrong you should laugh at me, not be mad, anger suggest you question yourself and your own beliefs....if you were not joking, either way please don't be offended, it's just a thought, not an attack.
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:42 PM #35
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Space is a marvelous thing. Not only is it vast beyond human comprehension, but within it lies giant stars, beautiful planets, enormous clouds of dust and gas, and perhaps even things that we cannot yet fathom. It is no wonder so many wish to explore the stars; to travel to other worlds beyond our little slice of the universe. However, there is just one itsy-bitsy problem in the way, an annoying boundary of sorts. The universe is really, really big, and it is kind of technically impossible to travel faster than light. This essentially means that even if we were able to travel as fast as a speeding photon, it would still take many years to get anywhere, and the same amount of time to get back.

Does this mean interstellar travel in science fiction is a lie? Does that mean it would take years to transport my goods to Jita as opposed to a few minutes of auto-pilot? Perhaps not. One potential way to work around this universal boundary is warp drive technology. While warp drives currently only exist in the realms of EVE or Star Trek, they may not be as fictional as one might think.

IT'S ALL ABOUT RELATIVITY

A significant part of our understanding of modern physics is based upon a foundation formed by one of Einstein's theories, his Special Theory of Relativity. This scientific theory is the accepted physical theory for the relationship between space and time, forming the basis for many scientific models. However, the postulations of special relativity in particular presents a problem for anyone wishing to travel faster than the speed of light.

EINSTEIN'S SPECIAL THEORY OF RELATIVITY

1. The speed of light (~ 3 x 108 m/s) is constant for all observers regardless of what reference frame they are in.

2. The laws of physics must be the same for all observers who are moving with uniform velocity relative to one another.

These postulations come together along with other scientific theories to create Einstein's famed equation, E=mc2, where E is energy, m is mass, and c is the speed of light. This equation has major implications, as it equates matter with energy, the two being the same thing! Thus the energy of an object, for example as a result of its motion, will increase the mass of the object in question as well. As an object moves faster and faster, its mass will increase and become greater.

Such an effect is not noticeable in everyday life, nor are the other effects of Special Relativity such as time dilation and length contraction. This is because in order for these relativistic effects to be felt, an object has to be moving very fast, such as 10% if the speed of light or faster. If an object were to travel at velocities approaching the speed of light, its mass will increase until it reaches infinity. An object that is traveling at the speed of light will have infinite mass. But in order to move that infinitely massive object an infinite amount of energy is needed. Thus, it is physically impossible for anything to travel as fast or faster than the speed of light; at least traditionally.

WARP DRIVE MECHANICS

Warp drive technology supposedly enables "faster-than-light" travel through a loophole-of-sorts in Einstein's other theory: the General Theory of Relativity. The theory states that all matter bends the fabric of space and time, with more massive objects bending space-time more than less massive objects. This can be visualised by imagining space-time as a sheet of fabric stretched at all sides. Objects with sufficient mass, such as a soccer ball, would bend the sheet around it. One of the effects of this bending is what we call gravity, which diverges from the traditional Newtonian view that gravity is a force. Even light itself bends around objects with significant "gravity wells".

[]

An illustration of the effects objects have on space-time. (yorku)

The Warp Drive is based on the idea that one can manipulate space-time itself in order to travel to a far-away location that would otherwise have taken years if not decades to reach. So while one cannot travel through space faster than light, perhaps one can simply bend space and bring it closer. Space itself is flexible, having been expanding ever since the Big Bang. In theory, a spaceship, for example, would not need to physically travel faster than the speed of light in order to reach its destination within a reasonable amount of time. Instead, the spacecraft would simply bend the space around it, contracting the space in front while expanding the space behind. The spacecraft would never technically travel faster than light, and would reach its location much faster than if it had used "conventional" means.

THE ALCUBIERRE DRIVE

In May 1994, Miguel Alcubierre Moya, a Mexican theoretical physicist, proposed in a paper a possible way of circumventing the physical principle that nothing can travel faster than light. In his proposal "The Warp Drive: Hyper-fast travel within general relativity," Alcubierre described the Alcubierre drive, which would allow the creation of a bubble of "flat space" that would be driven forward by the local expansion of space-time around it. A spacecraft would be able to travel through space by contracting and expanding the space around itself, effectively allowing the spacecraft to achieve faster-than-light travel.

[]

A illustration of the space bending effects of a warp drive. (unsolving)

The Alcubierre drive is based on Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, namely a solution of Einstein's field equations, and relies on the existence of exotic matter with negative mass. The design of the Alcubierre warp drive would involve having a football-shape spacecraft, with a ring of exotic matter with negative mass attached to it. This ring would cause the space-time around the spacecraft to warp, though the spacecraft itself would remain in a bubble of flat space-time. In this way, the spacecraft will be unaffected by the warping effects of the ring, while also being thrust forward through space. According to Alucbierre's initial proposal, this Alcubierre warp drive would allow a spacecraft to travel at effective velocities ten times the speed of light.

The Alcubierre drive is not without its problems though, such as the fact that it can only work if exotic matter with negative mass exists, and by extension negative energy as well. Exotic mass is a term used to describe matter that deviates from the norm, the norm being the matter that composes the observable universe. Dark matter, which is poorly understood, is a type of exotic matter. Exotic matter with negative mass and negative energy is a prerequisite for the Alcubierre drive to work, but the nature of exotic matter makes it difficult to quantify and research. If exotic matter that has the exact qualities needed by the Alcubierre drive does not exist, then the entire concept would be a moot point. Alcubierre, however, did argue that the Casimir vacuum between parallel plates could be used to substitute the negative-energy requirement needed by the Alcubierre drive.

[]

An illustration of the Alcubierre Drive in action. (dailygalaxy)

There are other issues plaguing the Alcubierre drive, most notably the amount of energy required for it to work. Calculations regarding the Alcubierre drive showed that the energy required by the device would exceed the mass-energy density of the planet Jupiter. Needless to say, at a mass of 1.9 x 1.9 × 1027 kilograms, that is a horrific energy requirement. Though the Alcubierre drive could indeed be technically plausible in nature, the immense energy needed for it to work makes it not only impractical but impossible with modern technology.

A NEW HOPE

While the Alcubierre drive apparently necessitates enormous amounts of energy (who needs Jupiter anyways, right?) further developments on the concept may actually make it a viable idea. In recent years, subsequent calculations and adjustments to Alcubierre's inital proposal have drastically decreased the energy requirements for the Alcubiere warp drive, allowing it to run on significantly lower, and realistically possible, amounts of energy. According to Harold White of NASA's Johnson Space Center, changing the shape of the ring encircling the spacecraft causes the amount of energy needed to power the warp drive to go down.

White's calculations showed that if the shape of the ring was modified to resemble that of a rounded donut, by making it thicker and more curvy, the warp drive would only need the mass-energy of an object the size of NASA's Voyager 1 spacecraft. Going from 317 times the mass of the Earth to a mass of 722 kilograms makes the Alcubierre drive much more feasible, potentially opening the way for interstellar travel in the future. Other adjustments to the concept, such as making the intensity of the space warps move in an oscillating fashion over time, can help lower the energy requirement even more so.

[]

The new, adjusted shape of the Alcubierre Drive. (extremetech)

So far, White's theories are currently being tested at the Johnson Space Center. There, White and his colleagues use what they refer to as a White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer (a modified Michelson-Morley interferometer that detects small perturbations in space-time) to create microscopic warps in space-time. In order to test the feasibility of the concept, White and his colleagues intend to make one of the interferometer's legs appear to be a different length than it actually is, thereby having a proof-of-concept for his theory. Though the effectiveness of their laser interferometer is still being researched, the work done with it represents one of the leading research work done on the Alcubierre drive.

HELM, WARP ONE ENGAGE!

Warp Drive technology has long been something that only exists in science fiction, with television shows such as Star Trek showing the wonders that can be reached if one could travel faster than light. At the moment, warp drive technology is only a theory; a theoretical possibility made plausible due to a quirk in the nature of space-time. No physical evidence of the feasibility of the theory has been shown, let alone any practical applications. However, similar to how nuclear energy was only a theory in the past, all it takes is one small experiment proving the theory for progress to really begin.

Though it will be a long time before NASA and other space agencies are strapping warp drives to spacecraft, the research being done on the subject shows that warp drive technology may not be impossible after all. Perhaps one day humanity will break free of the universe's physical constraint that is the speed of light, allowing our species to become a true space-faring civilization.

taken from https://www.themittani.com/features/...0/1?nopaging=1

more fact http://www.enthea.org/docs/Warp-Drives-Engineering.pdf
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0712.1649v6.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...0110015936.pdf
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Old 05-23-2016, 10:10 PM #36
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Why do they choose yellow lasers for such an application? They look cool and all, but I'm sure there's a more scientific reason.
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Old 05-23-2016, 10:14 PM #37
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Madmacmo posted this, I just love it.
Can you reduce the size of that photo or are you just trying to further derail this thread?

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Old 05-23-2016, 10:16 PM #38
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

It excites a sodium layer 60 miles up and creates a point source for alignment and compensation by adaptive optics.
It's to help compensate for airs distortion.

Here's an article about it.

Why observatories shoot lasers at the Universe ? Starts With A Bang


--------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Can you reduce the size of that photo or are you just trying to further derail this thread?

Alan
I just copy and pasted Madmacmo's link, but I will delete it and just post the link.



Madmacmo posted this, I just love it. 22 watts each I'm sure they are dpss, the pump diode's must be massive.

Full size image at link below.

Laser Technology Advancements (at least from my easily impressed perspective)
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:50 AM #39
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
It excites a sodium layer 60 miles up and creates a point source for alignment and compensation by adaptive optics.
It's to help compensate for airs distortion.

Here's an article about it.

Why observatories shoot lasers at the Universe ? Starts With A Bang


--------------------------------------------------



I just copy and pasted Madmacmo's link, but I will delete it and just post the link.

Madmacmo posted this, I just love it. 22 watts each I'm sure they are dpss, the pump diode's must be massive.

Full size image at link below.

Laser Technology Advancements (at least from my easily impressed perspective)
They're usually dye lasers in most photos you see. IIRC they are also almost entirely flashlamp pumped.

The switch to DPSS as more popular for new telescopes was only very recently made, but I'm not sure if that's because optics got better to use lower power levels or really high power DPSS ones are worth it.
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Old 05-24-2016, 03:25 AM #40
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

just a quick question to those following this thread do you think that if a older civilization is out there do they posses the ability to use warp type propulsion
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Old 05-24-2016, 03:37 AM #41
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Originally Posted by vortish View Post
just a quick question to those following this thread do you think that if a older civilization is out there do they posses the ability to use warp type propulsion
If there are indeed extraterrestrials visiting Earth from other solar systems, I don't see how they couldn't have some sort of FTL technology.

Otherwise, I think they'd come in a huge multi generational starship looking for a home, and we'd all definitely notice it.

That said, there's still no absolute proof that they're here, so if they aren't, probably not.

It's possible a civilization on the other edge of the universe with no chance of getting to us or contacting us could develop such a tech without us ever seeing it.


The physics for warping, FTL, and entanglement are weak too though. It's somewhat plausible as far as we know, but nothing's been truly proven. I'd say most decent physicists would tell you no, but that doesn't mean they're right.
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Old 05-24-2016, 04:52 AM #42
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Alright I'm kinda new to this stuff and I certainly don't have a physics degree although I do understand quantum mechanics and relativity quite well through personal research. I have heard that the EM drive or "impossible engine" as the media likes to call it could potentially generate some kind of gravitational distortion or warp. The engine works by bouncing microwaves around in a specially shaped conical cavity, with thrust being provided without the need for any propellant. Nothing is expelled out the back of the engine, so it should violate conservation of momentum. However, test after test have shown that even in a vacuum the engine produces measurable thrust, so it cannot be due to the Lorentz interaction. So if it seems to break conservation of momentum but we know it works (much like cavemen making fire without understanding how combustion worked), then something has to be happening that we don't understand yet to generate that thrust. Is it possible that this is due to some kind of warping effect? Also I know that if you made the engine superconducting, you would be able to get hundreds of times more thrust/kilowatt.
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Old 05-24-2016, 05:21 AM #43
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Alright I'm kinda new to this stuff and I certainly don't have a physics degree although I do understand quantum mechanics and relativity quite well through personal research. I have heard that the EM drive or "impossible engine" as the media likes to call it could potentially generate some kind of gravitational distortion or warp. The engine works by bouncing microwaves around in a specially shaped conical cavity, with thrust being provided without the need for any propellant. Nothing is expelled out the back of the engine, so it should violate conservation of momentum. However, test after test have shown that even in a vacuum the engine produces measurable thrust, so it cannot be due to the Lorentz interaction. So if it seems to break conservation of momentum but we know it works (much like cavemen making fire without understanding how combustion worked), then something has to be happening that we don't understand yet to generate that thrust. Is it possible that this is due to some kind of warping effect? Also I know that if you made the engine superconducting, you would be able to get hundreds of times more thrust/kilowatt.
The EmDrive is a very tricky situation in science. Numerous theories about how it works from space distortion, to effecting quantum vacuum virtual plasma, to momentum actually jumping between quantum states, and so on.

There still haven't been enough legitimate studies of its actual ability to produce thrust either though. NASA's even been very tight-lipped about their experimentation after the media fiasco where people thought they succeeded in creating a warp bubble using one.

Like many mysterious inventions created without engineering behind them that look like they shouldn't work, professionals don't want to touch them.
It's a shame, but this sort of thing has happened with many ideas. Biggest example is cold fusion; after it started looking bad, experimentation stopped.
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Old 05-25-2016, 12:54 AM #44
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Such a shame indeed. Damn if I had the money I'd start my own lab and build a superconducting version and subject it to every test imaginable before trying to get a proof-of-concept craft launched into space. I feel like this really could go far and as far as I know nobody has attempted to build the superconducting version yet. Its a bummer that more work isn't being done on the EM drive because it really is a very simple device to build. Whether it creates a warp bubble or not (Please please please) it could still help us to send craft to mars or europa.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:32 AM #45
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Such a shame indeed. Damn if I had the money I'd start my own lab and build a superconducting version and subject it to every test imaginable before trying to get a proof-of-concept craft launched into space. I feel like this really could go far and as far as I know nobody has attempted to build the superconducting version yet. Its a bummer that more work isn't being done on the EM drive because it really is a very simple device to build. Whether it creates a warp bubble or not (Please please please) it could still help us to send craft to mars or europa.
Definitely a shame, but the thing would have to produce a lot more thrust before it'd be worth it. Any directional radiation source can already produce thrust since photons have momentum. The thrusts are usually miniscule, but it's scientifically proven to work unlike the EmDrive is right now. Laser propulsion and light sails are the major examples. Even the thermal radiation off of RTGs can produce a little bit of thrust, and it had to be accounted for on many probes like New Horizons.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:38 AM #46
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

Wow, that's super cool about the RTG radiation producing thrust. I didn't realized they had to factor that in. Yeah it would definitely have to produce more thrust, but the problem with lighsails and laser propulsion is that you can get going really fast but don't have any way to slow down once you reach your destination. With EM drive you'd simply flip the ship around and decelerate. While the thrust it produces now is very small, it could theoretically be scaled up to much larger sizes, powered by a nuclear reactor, and generate a lot more thrust ESPECIALLY if it is superconducting.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:59 AM #47
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

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Wow, that's super cool about the RTG radiation producing thrust. I didn't realized they had to factor that in. Yeah it would definitely have to produce more thrust, but the problem with lighsails and laser propulsion is that you can get going really fast but don't have any way to slow down once you reach your destination. With EM drive you'd simply flip the ship around and decelerate. While the thrust it produces now is very small, it could theoretically be scaled up to much larger sizes, powered by a nuclear reactor, and generate a lot more thrust ESPECIALLY if it is superconducting.
Definitely an issue with lightsails, but laser propulsion could be on a ship just like an EM drive. The reason why it isn't frequently proposed is that the power supply mass wouldn't be worth it with the tiny thrust. The issues are pretty much the same between on board laser propulsion and EM drives. Unless EM drives are hugely propulsive, a nuclear reactor would have to have too little mass.

Edit: A critical exta bit of info on the momentum of light is that it's inversely proportional to the wavelength. X-ray or gamma propulsion might be able to produce more thrust for the same amount of photons. A delicate balance would have to be struck between the mass of the emitter, power requirements, efficiency, and wavelength.
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Old 05-26-2016, 03:02 AM #48
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Default Re: Interstellar Space Travel

True a gamma ray laser could work but do we have the capability to generate gamma rays efficiently at that intensity?
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