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Old 11-01-2016, 01:38 AM #449
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

8 grams would actually be a very good result if it could be reproduced. It's an amount easily measured on a device that weighs several kilograms and nothing so minute the measurement error would throw off all results.

I still have no clue how it could work though. There is the diagram of the tapered waveguide. This seems simple when you look at the wide and narrow ends of the thing, but not if you consider the other 'skewed' sides. An impact on such a skewed side would also have a horizontal component, and all those would add up to exactly zero combined with the vertical sides of the thing.

Then again, if it works in a practical model, it works

With these things it's very important to get all the details right though. One simple thing where most people including scientists get it wrong the the crooke's radiometer - one of those bulbs with usually 4 vanes in it that turn when exposed to light/heat. Many people think that it moves because reflecting a photon impacts more energy onto a vane than absorbing one.

This seems plausbile, untill you build one with a perfect vacuum and it no longer works. Turns out that the mechanism of movement is that the dark side of the vanes heat up and impact energy on the small amount of gas present in an imperfect sample (which all demonstration models are, since a vacuum low enough to 'make it work' was considered 'good enough to demonstrate the effect')


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Old 11-01-2016, 01:44 AM #450
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
8 grams would actually be a very good result if it could be reproduced. It's an amount easily measured on a device that weighs several kilograms and nothing so minute the measurement error would throw off all results.

I still have no clue how it could work though. There is the diagram of the tapered waveguide. This seems simple when you look at the wide and narrow ends of the thing, but not if you consider the other 'skewed' sides. An impact on such a skewed side would also have a horizontal component, and all those would add up to exactly zero combined with the vertical sides of the thing.

Then again, if it works in a practical model, it works

With these things it's very important to get all the details right though. One simple thing where most people including scientists get it wrong the the crooke's radiometer - one of those bulbs with usually 4 vanes in it that turn when exposed to light/heat. Many people think that it moves because reflecting a photon impacts more energy onto a vane than absorbing one.

This seems plausbile, untill you build one with a perfect vacuum and it no longer works. Turns out that the mechanism of movement is that the dark side of the vanes heat up and impact energy on the small amount of gas present in an imperfect sample (which all demonstration models are, since a vacuum low enough to 'make it work' was considered 'good enough to demonstrate the effect')
The simplest explanation is it is a type of "Radiation Pressure" that is higher on one end of the cavity than the other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure


This is a diagram of a proposed "Optical Em_Drive"

Note the lasers are at the same angle as the sides of the frustum. Since the mirrors are not perfectly reflective the light would be at a reduced level when it reaches the opposite side, also at a shallow angle more light should be reflected. This puts the most photon/radiation pressure at the ends of the frustum.

I agree it is only plausbile, to me it is plausbile enough for me to aspire to replicate results.



However my goal isn't to produce thrust, my goal is to confirm that there is an effect measurable by laser interferometer, that would imply the device is effecting the Higgs Field/Spacetime.
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Old 11-01-2016, 03:10 AM #451
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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This is a diagram of a proposed "Optical Em_Drive"
I remember seeing this on Reddit a while ago. Any idea if he finished it?
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Old 11-01-2016, 03:23 AM #452
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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I remember seeing this on Reddit a while ago. Any idea if he finished it?
As I understand it he did finish it but came up against the limits of his testing equipment.

He has since switched to the more accepted magnetron powered version.

The magnetron he is attempting to use is from a microwave oven and suffers from "thermal runaway" and he resorted in his last attempt to using ice gel packs and aluminum foil to try to cool and shield it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/QThruster/c...rtex_shedding/



Once I have my interferometer built I plan to combine both ideas and build a MASER as my EM source for the device.

I think a klystron would be a good candidate as it is small and I can run it from a watt or so to several hundred (probably more than enough to burn out other components in the device).
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Old 11-02-2016, 01:17 AM #453
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

If you want to create an RF field in the frequency a microwave oven operates you really don't need to use vacuum tubes at all for low powers.

You surely need one to generate the better part of a kilowatt in a $99 kitchen applicance for practical reasons.

If you only needed a couple of watts, or tens of watts, you can do this completely with semiconductors. These devices are widely used in cellphone tower equipment, and probably available from scrapped equipment as well when it is replace with newer 4G stuff and all.

I still see no mechanism how these cavity designs can produce thrust. More importantly, they should produce -more- thrust than just blasting the radiation out of the back to be of any practical use.

You can move a spacecraft forward by strapping a microwave oven with it's door open (and interlock sabotaged) as long as you have the electrical power available to do this. Given comparable efficiency you could also strap a LED (array) of similar power level to it and get equal results.

One problem with all of this is where to get the electrical power from anyway. If you get it from a star you may just as well use sails. If you get it from an RTG you might just as well shield one side a bit less and let the generated radiation push you forward.
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Old 11-02-2016, 03:40 AM #454
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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I plan to combine both ideas and build a MASER as my EM source for the device.
Now THAT would be impressive. Exactly what kind of lab do you have access to that has the capabilities to manufacture a MASER?
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Old 11-02-2016, 05:34 AM #455
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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Now THAT would be impressive. Exactly what kind of lab do you have access to that has the capabilities to manufacture a MASER?
My last few years in the .mil I was certified as an "Electronic Warfare Specialist"

What I learned from that plus the "to me" amazing fact that a lot of mil grade microwave gear is available on places like ebay. Many sellers don't even know what they are selling.

I supposes it wouldn't be a "MASER" by the strictest definition. The "divergence" would be similar to what you see in some of the ultra tight beam LED flashlights.
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Old 11-03-2016, 01:17 AM #456
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Oh yeah, the equipment ends up everywhere. Downside is that the seller has no idea what it is not how to list it, so you have to be lucky and recognize it from a picture while browsing around a bit.

A bigass couple-of-GHz sat uplink system could easily end up as scap metal: it does contain a significant mass of metal, and has no exterior features that make it look very valuable to the average person (the dish will likely not be on it or anything like that, just a waveguide output coupler).

As for the output angle of a microwave signal: those might be about as good as that of a multimode diode laser when using a dish intended for domestic tv reception. Anyone that ever aligned a meter or so wide dish will know how tricky that is.
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Old 11-03-2016, 01:57 AM #457
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
Oh yeah, the equipment ends up everywhere. Downside is that the seller has no idea what it is not how to list it, so you have to be lucky and recognize it from a picture while browsing around a bit.

A bigass couple-of-GHz sat uplink system could easily end up as scap metal: it does contain a significant mass of metal, and has no exterior features that make it look very valuable to the average person (the dish will likely not be on it or anything like that, just a waveguide output coupler).

As for the output angle of a microwave signal: those might be about as good as that of a multimode diode laser when using a dish intended for domestic tv reception. Anyone that ever aligned a meter or so wide dish will know how tricky that is.
I have indeed been looking for a microwave sat uplink system/parts.

It was funny when I came to the conclusion that it would be easier to build a "full scale" high power (Hundreds or even thousands of watts) Em_Drive, everything I've seen hasn't been much larger than a coffee can.
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:51 AM #458
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

I guess people like to keep proof of concept things to the small scale if possible.

Apart from cost, a downside from a full size device would be the means to power it. If you are talking about a few kilowatts RF power drive, chances are the average home mains will not provide that. In a proper electrical lab with a good 3 phase supply it should not be a problem though, and at this power level you'll want 3 phase to make things easier on rectification and such.

Downside is that high power RF tubes do not work well on lower power levels. If you manage to secure something like a 50 kW klystron it'll probably take the entire mains power to your house just to power the filament alone
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:58 AM #459
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

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I guess people like to keep proof of concept things to the small scale if possible.

Apart from cost, a downside from a full size device would be the means to power it. If you are talking about a few kilowatts RF power drive, chances are the average home mains will not provide that. In a proper electrical lab with a good 3 phase supply it should not be a problem though, and at this power level you'll want 3 phase to make things easier on rectification and such.

Downside is that high power RF tubes do not work well on lower power levels. If you manage to secure something like a 50 kW klystron it'll probably take the entire mains power to your house just to power the filament alone
I have found a few examples of man and light vehicle portable sat com systems that are more manageable.

The trick is finding ones that are in working order or within my ability to repair.

They are out there and within my hypothetical budget.
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Old 11-04-2016, 02:05 AM #460
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Please share if you got hold of something like that.

The vehicle based systems surely are interesting as power requirements are reasonably met. I'm not sure about how the whole space drive thing will work out, but getting those systems operational again to some degree is a challenge on its own, and something i'd be willing to help with as far as i'm capable... these microwave devices often are so complex (or elegant) that it's hard to get a good undesrtanding of how they operate even in their intended application.
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:07 AM #461
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

I may have to rethink my initial design and start by replicating the device NASA tested. In effect it should be an order of magnitude less expensive to build than I thought.

LEAKED NASA EAGLEWORKS PAPER CONFIRMS PROMISING EMDRIVE RESULTS

The NASA paper goes into fine detail on the setup of the device itself. (It reminds me much of radio antenna theory from my time in the military)

On another note I can build the self contained, portable (Oscilloscope included) Scanning Fabry-Perot Interferometer I want to use to test for any warping in gravity it produces for about $500 and get the finesse of $5000+ equipment.

The interferometer should be accurate enough to be calibrated on local gravity changes like being on a mountain peak vs in a valley or cave/mine.

For example the difference between the local gravity at my house vs the nearest peak is about 1% according to this site http://www.sensorsone.com/local-gravity-calculator/
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Old 11-15-2016, 12:16 AM #462
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

I'm really curious to what is actually producing these results.

Personally i see no mechanism how these drives can work, but at least they seem to even in vacuum. One problem is that the forces are very very small - with that setup running at 80 watts and 1.2 uN/W the resulting force is 100 uN on a device that looks like it weighs something in the order of a kilogram (10 N gravity).

Measuring this on earth is tricky, the change between off and on is 10 ppm or so. Literally dropping a speck of dust that weights only 1 milligram onto the device (or abalting that off) would offset the entire mesurement.

One these things are tested in space that may change, though it would have to be at a high altitude for effects from the atmosphere to be eliminated (this drive could not keep the ISS up in its orbit even if it had a gigawatt of power available).
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Old 11-15-2016, 12:53 AM #463
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I'm really curious to what is actually producing these results.

Personally i see no mechanism how these drives can work, but at least they seem to even in vacuum. One problem is that the forces are very very small - with that setup running at 80 watts and 1.2 uN/W the resulting force is 100 uN on a device that looks like it weighs something in the order of a kilogram (10 N gravity).

Measuring this on earth is tricky, the change between off and on is 10 ppm or so. Literally dropping a speck of dust that weights only 1 milligram onto the device (or abalting that off) would offset the entire mesurement.

One these things are tested in space that may change, though it would have to be at a high altitude for effects from the atmosphere to be eliminated (this drive could not keep the ISS up in its orbit even if it had a gigawatt of power available).
My first guess was it was a type of photon pressure but this is orders of magnitude above the thrust of a photon rocket of the same power.

I'm hedging my bets that the thrust is produced by some effect on the Higgs Field or other Space/Time effect.
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Old 11-15-2016, 09:30 PM #464
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Default Re: Space Discussion Thread

Hey, look what they've finished putting together!

http://i.imgur.com/Pozrvos.jpg

Well, at least the primary mirror is finished...
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