Open source Gamma spectrometer (MCA) discussion

Seoul_lasers · Mar 18, 2012

First of all, I am quite familiar with GM detectors and radiation dosimetry. I think I have mentioned before that I used to work in disposal and logistics. Quite often I got placed on a HAZMAT team due to my first aid training.
A few of the materials that we had to deal with were considered strongly Radioactive. These were large area aircraft altimeters (Ra), (DU or U238), Thorium doped lenses for old aircraft cameras and the most Radioactive of all, Metallurgical stress/thickness gauge test sources (Co60) which are less than the size of an AAA cell, but need a multi-tonne lead pig to store them in.
so hot that that Gamma rays can give a dose WELL beyond that needed for immediate biological effects. Potentially Lethal.
Soon after my experience with DND and HAZMAT/disposal, I got into Geiger counters, and Radioactive minerals. The first thing I bought was a LENI-CDV700 6B (super-modded) by George Dowell, which is a counter I will never sell! It's an amazing counter!

Recently, I was interested by an Article by Dr.David Prutchi of Geiger counter enthusiasts yahoo group explaining about a DIY Gamma spectrometer. It had me interested immediately!

This device is used to measure and give a ID to what you are detecting. It can be used to disseminate the difference between Potassium 40 (a naturally occurring isotope of Potassium in nature) and Cs137 by showing the distinct energy patterns.
After the disaster in Japan last year, there has been a surge of interest around Radiation detection and Spectroscopy of Radioisotopes.

I'd like to show you this DIY spectometer project by Dr.Prutchi,

diy Physics Blog - Open-Source Handheld Gamma Spectrometer on Yahoo Group GammaSpectrometry

This gamma spectrometer is based around the STM32F103VBT6 microcontroller board.

I am really curious about the project, however I think it's beyond me at this point to try it.

lasersbee · Mar 18, 2012

Interesting.... Thanks for sharing..
Maybe I missed it but what are they using
for the detector...:thinking:

Jerry

Seoul_lasers · Mar 18, 2012

Ah...woops... The detector is a NaI/Tl Scintillation detector.
Nominally these operate around 1.6-2Kvdc.

Hey, you'd be doing well if you made a MCA for isotope identification. Think of all those farmers in Japan that would want one. Currently many of these famers must rely on the government to test their food crops. a $500 or even $1000 MCA is affordable compared to a $50,000 commercial MCA.

lasersbee · Mar 18, 2012

Here is an article I just found on the Detector type...

http://www.horiba.com/uploads/media/RE09-18-098_03.pdf

Jerry

Seoul_lasers · Mar 18, 2012

lasersbee said:
Here is an article I just found on the Detector type...

http://www.horiba.com/uploads/media/RE09-18-098_03.pdf

Jerry

These scintillation detectors have been around since the late 1950s. The ones featured in the article are for gamma cameras and wide area arrays in Particle accelerators.

Anyways.

I'm very curious about this DYI project and how difficult it would be to gather all the pieces necessary to build it.

I'd like to hear your take on it Jerry, especially from an EXPERT DIY'er such as yourself.

lasersbee · Mar 18, 2012

HaHa.... You are barking up the wrong tree....:crackup:
I'm far from an Expert....

I find Laser's dangerous enough to work with.
Working with radioactive isotopes just doesn't
tickle my fancy...

BTW what is the cost of the sensor...

I do have a small GM tube Geiger counter that
I bought as a kit and use a radioactive element
that I removed from a smoke detector as a
radiation source.

Jerry

lasersbee · Mar 18, 2012

Thanks for the links...:beer:

Jerry

Seoul_lasers · Mar 18, 2012

lasersbee said:
HaHa.... You are barking up the wrong tree....:crackup:
I'm far from an Expert....

I find Laser's dangerous enough to work with.
Working with radioactive isotopes just doesn't
tickle my fancy...

BTW what is the cost of the sensor...

I do have a small GM tube Geiger counter that
I bought as a kit and use a radioactive element
that I removed from a smoke detector as a
radiation source.

Jerry

surplus NaI/Tl scintillation detectors can be had for under $200. New detectors can fetch over $1000 depending on wether or not they come complete with a preamp or a digital interface for a SCA. DIY'er generally go for the bare tube in a connector socket with BNC or MHV. (way cheaper)

Some more links to the project

http://labx.altervista.org/100rad/mca500/mca.htm

Sigurthr · Mar 18, 2012

Seoul_lasers said:
Recently, I was interested by an Article by Dr.David Prutchi of Geiger counter enthusiasts yahoo group explaining about a DIY Gamma spectrometer. It had me interested immediately!

I believe you're referring to the "GammaGrapher" project that is currently in development. It is the brainchild of "Alain" on GCE. Yes, I'm a member there, hehe, (SigurthrTheFlutist). I don't post a lot there anymore since I have no expertise in gamma spectroscopy and scintillation detectors and there has been little discussion of geiger based tech in the recent years. The price of a high resolution scintillator has always been the prohibitive factor for me, especially since I have other expensive hobbies to fund!

Anyway, many of us there are awaiting the release of a kit form of the GammaGrapher. AFAIK, the V1 (totally DIY) has been abandoned/scrapped and they are now looking in to using a DSO Nano tablet as the display platform. The intended kit will be a DIY circuit that provides +HV for the scint and pulse detection and HV isolation so you just build the circuit, attach a scintillator probe, and plug it all in to a DSO Nano. You then install the custom firmware being written for it and it all runs as a portable MCA (multi-channel analyzer). Truly genious. Still pretty expensive for a tertiary hobby, but if/when these kits become available I'll try and grab one if I can get a scintillator kit from Geo. Though, I'd rather not mess with NaI:Tl if I don't have to, but the plastic scintillator material is not suitable for gamma spectroscopy work. The guys working on this project are visionaries whom I cannot keep up with, way out of my league.

I have several geiger counters/detectors currently. One DIY scaler made from one of Geo's russian pancake tubes and a Robert G8RPI PIC Scaler module. One rebuilt and restored Universal Atomics CDV-700 featuring Doug Moore (Trioglodite)'s modified "Pizaz" light and sound circuit. One 1980's erra SBM-20 based geiger clicker. I had others but sold them off at various points. If I ever fall in to some serious money I'll be looking to grab a nice Ludlum Model 3 + NaI:TL Scintillator probe.

For those who don't know "Geo" George Dowell K0FF, he is a true DIY Radiological Detection master. He's the one to go to and has single handedly built up most of what there is today in the hobby of amateur radiological detection. He runs several Yahoo Groups "forums" centered around the hobby and has a massive database of articles he has written over the years on the subject. To find more just google "Geiger Counter Enthusiasts" or GCE.

Btw, it is good to see GCE friends here on LPF. Small world =) .

Seoul_lasers · Mar 19, 2012

Sigurthr said:
I believe you're referring to the "GammaGrapher" project that is currently in development. It is the brainchild of "Alain" on GCE. Yes, I'm a member there, hehe, (SigurthrTheFlutist). I don't post a lot there anymore since I have no expertise in gamma spectroscopy and scintillation detectors and there has been little discussion of geiger based tech in the recent years. The price of a high resolution scintillator has always been the prohibitive factor for me, especially since I have other expensive hobbies to fund!

Anyway, many of us there are awaiting the release of a kit form of the GammaGrapher. AFAIK, the V1 (totally DIY) has been abandoned/scrapped and they are now looking in to using a DSO Nano tablet as the display platform. The intended kit will be a DIY circuit that provides +HV for the scint and pulse detection and HV isolation so you just build the circuit, attach a scintillator probe, and plug it all in to a DSO Nano. You then install the custom firmware being written for it and it all runs as a portable MCA (multi-channel analyzer). Truly genious. Still pretty expensive for a tertiary hobby, but if/when these kits become available I'll try and grab one if I can get a scintillator kit from Geo. Though, I'd rather not mess with NaI:Tl if I don't have to, but the plastic scintillator material is not suitable for gamma spectroscopy work. The guys working on this project are visionaries whom I cannot keep up with, way out of my league.

I have several geiger counters/detectors currently. One DIY scaler made from one of Geo's russian pancake tubes and a Robert G8RPI PIC Scaler module. One rebuilt and restored Universal Atomics CDV-700 featuring Doug Moore (Trioglodite)'s modified "Pizaz" light and sound circuit. One 1980's erra SBM-20 based geiger clicker. I had others but sold them off at various points. If I ever fall in to some serious money I'll be looking to grab a nice Ludlum Model 3 + NaI:TL Scintillator probe.

For those who don't know "Geo" George Dowell K0FF, he is a true DIY Radiological Detection master. He's the one to go to and has single handedly built up most of what there is today in the hobby of amateur radiological detection. He runs several Yahoo Groups "forums" centered around the hobby and has a massive database of articles he has written over the years on the subject. To find more just google "Geiger Counter Enthusiasts" or GCE.

Btw, it is good to see GCE friends here on LPF. Small world =) .

You'd be correct. The Gamma Grapher V2 is what I was referring to. I wasn't sure if the project was abandoned. Too bad. There were several demos showing it in action.
Looked promising. I was hoping for making a PIC based board like the one shown on Dr.Prutchi site.
For now I'll hold off.

Seoul_lasers · Mar 19, 2012

Sigurthr said:
I believe you're referring to the "GammaGrapher" project that is currently in development. It is the brainchild of "Alain" on GCE. Yes, I'm a member there, hehe, (SigurthrTheFlutist). I don't post a lot there anymore since I have no expertise in gamma spectroscopy and scintillation detectors and there has been little discussion of geiger based tech in the recent years. The price of a high resolution scintillator has always been the prohibitive factor for me, especially since I have other expensive hobbies to fund!

Anyway, many of us there are awaiting the release of a kit form of the GammaGrapher. AFAIK, the V1 (totally DIY) has been abandoned/scrapped and they are now looking in to using a DSO Nano tablet as the display platform. The intended kit will be a DIY circuit that provides +HV for the scint and pulse detection and HV isolation so you just build the circuit, attach a scintillator probe, and plug it all in to a DSO Nano. You then install the custom firmware being written for it and it all runs as a portable MCA (multi-channel analyzer). Truly genious. Still pretty expensive for a tertiary hobby, but if/when these kits become available I'll try and grab one if I can get a scintillator kit from Geo. Though, I'd rather not mess with NaI:Tl if I don't have to, but the plastic scintillator material is not suitable for gamma spectroscopy work. The guys working on this project are visionaries whom I cannot keep up with, way out of my league.

I have several geiger counters/detectors currently. One DIY scaler made from one of Geo's russian pancake tubes and a Robert G8RPI PIC Scaler module. One rebuilt and restored Universal Atomics CDV-700 featuring Doug Moore (Trioglodite)'s modified "Pizaz" light and sound circuit. One 1980's erra SBM-20 based geiger clicker. I had others but sold them off at various points. If I ever fall in to some serious money I'll be looking to grab a nice Ludlum Model 3 + NaI:TL Scintillator probe.

For those who don't know "Geo" George Dowell K0FF, he is a true DIY Radiological Detection master. He's the one to go to and has single handedly built up most of what there is today in the hobby of amateur radiological detection. He runs several Yahoo Groups "forums" centered around the hobby and has a massive database of articles he has written over the years on the subject. To find more just google "Geiger Counter Enthusiasts" or GCE.

Btw, it is good to see GCE friends here on LPF. Small world =) .

Actually I heard back from K0FF, and the GammaGrapher project isn't dead, not by a long shot. V2 is slated for release soon. V1 is working now. Project is alive.

Sigurthr · Mar 19, 2012

Oh that's fantastic news! I remember receiving an email from someone who had said the V1 development was discontinued, glad that isn't so!

Seoul_lasers · Mar 19, 2012

Also there is some talk that the project may go the route of Panda or Raspberry Pi for faster SCA or MCA use. Really exciting stuff here!

All of these boards can support extremely fast event counting due to the graphics processing.

Seoul_lasers · Mar 21, 2012

If anyone here is good with making SMD
Boards v3 of this project I'd out and
I'm itching to start building!
PM me

Seoul_lasers · Mar 27, 2012

Gamma counter gerber files have been added.
Anyone wanting to construct or modify this design is free to do so.
This is a 100% open source project.

If this is made properly, tested and distributed to farmers around the disaster zone in Fukushima this project has the potential to save lives and identify potential radiological threats.
Needed to make this project workable is a Scintillation detector (preferably a NaI:Tl 1.5")
BGO and plastic (organic) can also be used, but aren't as sensitive or their response time is too fast for this DIY counter's CPU.

If ANYONE is able to print these boards, that'd be great.
The developers over at GCE (Geiger counter enthusiasts) and Gamma spectrography yahoo groups are the brainchild's of this project.

Seoul_lasers · Apr 2, 2012

Re: Open source Gamma spectrometer (MCA) V2 discussion

Open source V2 of the MCA is now available for download. This time it uses a DSO nano V1 or V2 as the Channel analyser for $80USD
Basically, this project has evolved from a complete DIY to one that uses a few easily obtainable parts to assemble an MCA.
- Stable High voltage source (Adjustable) - 600Vdc - 2000Vdc
- NaI:Tl, BGO or Scintillation Plastic Scintillation detector 1" or better/ 2" NaI
- Line out for the detector... Needs a bypass cap.

Alternatively one could use this:
GS-1100A USB Gamma Scintillator Driver for Spectrometry items in BeeResearch store on eBay!

See the below links:

http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/35808268/2/radiation_stuff/nanonano?h=7bcd15

Open source Gamma spectrometer (MCA) discussion

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