Old 07-23-2010, 10:20 PM #1553
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Morals come from being raised correctly?
I've managed to get through life without killing anyone, and neither I nor my parents needed the Bible to tell them that killing was wrong. People aren't born without morals - I doubt anyone thinks that murder is OK, regardless of upbringing. Only when instincts (self-defence, hunger, intense anger), mental illness, or a cultural idea directly conflicts and overrules that, do people murder or kill. The link between "good for society" and "morally good" exists for a reason - morals increase the chances of a society surviving and thriving, so they are favoured by evolution.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
What happens after we die is BEYOND what can be measured or observed. Not that you should believe that something does happen, just because it can't be proven otherwise, but why the heck wouldn't you if such an afterlife is offered as a free gift? Do you pay anything for a gift? No, it is free!
If it's beyond observation and measuring, then religion can't claim to have concrete knowledge of it any more than an atheist can, unless it can provide valid evidence that their source of data (the supposed word of God) has the power to observe/measure it.

Since you mention that awareness is a factor in life, do you believe that a soul/awareness can end too? If awareness can continue for ever, then what are you aware of? Perhaps it is fear of non-awareness that leads people to believe so heavily in religion, because the alternative is disturbing or alien (and indeed, is impossible to imagine - the brain cannot imagine *not* existing). For that reason, people introduce the concept of an afterlife instead.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
I genuinely feel sorry for your perspective on mankind's existence. To say that we are nothing special is like saying we've never had control over our environment. Of course we are special! If dolphins are so dang smart, where the !&$% are their civilizations, governments, and technologies?
Dolphins aren't as smart as humans, but our societies are a result of 10,000 years of complete domination of our environment, and the ability to express complex ideas to each other, and so collaborate and solve abstract problems. Humans literally have an area of the brain that turned up in the not-too-distant past, which directly correlated with the start of language as we know it (beyond basic grunts and squeaks to express anger). That and fire kick-started society as we know it (since cooking allowed people to take on much more nutrition quickly, giving them more time to do other stuff, beyond eating and sleeping). Dolphins cannot communicate in the same way, so they are limited because they cannot work together beyond simple tasks. It is that region of our brain and chance that led to us having our unique position in the world today.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
If you see a human as nothing but a silly little "advanced" self sustaining chemical reaction, then how the $&%* do you explain the brain? If we are such an "advanced" chemical reaction, how the $*% did we evolve? Nature NEVER improves itself. It's strain to reach entropy will only ever destroy, hide, and hinder chemical processes and progresses. "Advancement" never comes without an external influence.
If you took apart a computer you'd see the same thing, but the processor is fundamentally very simple indeed - just regions of N and P type sillicon. On a micro scale, they are just switches, but on a macro scale they can do huge calculations. Why is the brain fundamentally any different to that? Each nerve cell functions in a predictable way, as does a transistor, but their arrangement is what causes them to process information so well. Our CNS has evolved from a simpler start, as have other animals'. (I realise this isn't the best example because computer chips have designers - but in the same way, you can see that some designs are wiped out because they are inefficient, don't work etc - and the most successful ones are built upon and become the next generation of chip - much like evolution does to a nervous system).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
So when I read posts that try to cheapen who we are as humans, being described as chemical reactions, as a body with no soul, with no sense of it's own AWARENESS (we are aware of our life, and we are aware of our awareness), its makes me sad. It truly does. I just wonder how such a perspective allows for anyone to live life happily at all! I'm not saying you aren't happy, but understand that I know nothing happier than the perspective I have now.
Likewise, when I see posts that make out that humans are any better than animals, because of religion or society, it surprises me. We may not understand a creature's society, but that's because we aren't one of their species. We might not be able to understand how a colony of ants or bees behaves, but it doesn't mean that their society is any less amazing or worthwhile than ours. Religion is fundamentally human-centric - and in my opinion, that is because it is a human concept, not because humans are special - in my opinion that "special" factor for humans is the structure of our brain, evolution and chance, not favouritism in religion.


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Old 07-23-2010, 10:21 PM #1554
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Tony, in your last example, that point is the present. What is the present? certain.

it all depends on what your definition of "is" is?


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Old 07-24-2010, 01:11 AM #1555
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by chipdouglas View Post
i can't tell if you're being sarcastic?
and if you are gonna start throwing around "studies" and stats then it will help your argument if you give a link to where you read it.

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U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas
Atheism & Divorce: Divorce Rates for Atheists are Among the Lowest in America - Why Do Conservative Christian Defenders of Marriage Get Divorced Most?
Barna survey: Baptists have highest divorce rate
What religion has the hightest divorce rate - Catholic Answers Forums

Obviously that research is all over the table (some sources are biased), but clearly atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rates.... It appears that the other graph I saw was slightly different, but the idea is the same. Even a catholic forum agrees with me....

How Religion Increases Depression in Teens: Going to Church Affects an Adolescent
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I think I've proven my point here....

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Originally Posted by drumz0rz View Post
I agree with you. Our planet has a traceable past, and a theoretically calculatable future. If you had all the measurements, you could rewind time, or fast forward it. If you knew the trajectory of every object that'll ever be within 100MM light years of earth, including new objects when come up, you could forsee collisions, the death of the sun, the rebirth of a new star from it's ashes, the cycle for billions more years until we get sucked into the black hole in the middle of the galaxy (or something else, who knows).

But that's out planet. That's an inanimate body following very specific and constant physical laws. Living things on the other hand, react to a huge number more variables. Many of which are simply impossible to predict. Humans have an exceptionally well developed brain. Because of that, we have our own sense of identity. Instead of just reacting to a stimulus automatically, we analyze it and determine the best course of action. Everyone is different.

While there are studies showing how people think, and there's huge fields in psychology and NLP, the fact is, people can be irrational. I have a good life, nothing to complain about, but if I wanted, for no reason I could swerve into oncoming traffic and die. I won't, but I could. Any time I wanted. That sort of thing can't be measured or quantified.

Living creatures on an individual basis don't have a destiny. Unlike celestial bodies, you can't analyze a creatures past and be able to accurately predict the future. Sure you may be generally close, I go to work in the same desk every day, but you can't nail any details really. The further out you go the more impossible it is to predict.
sorry to say, but you're wrong here. You can predict the future of a biological organism as easily as the rest of the universe. The only reason you wouldn't be able to is if they were a scientist that looked at geiger counters... there's no way to tell how many clicks they would hear but otherwise, as long as you know the organism and the stimuli you can predict them just like a celestial body. We are not magical or special, we follow the rules of science.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Yeah, if you count the lynchings that happen TO the "religious".
Morals come from being raised correctly?

1.Would you be able to show what "being raised correctly" looks like?
Everyone would give a different answer here. The Bible is full of the teachings that have kept people from eating each other, sacrificing each other, and worshipping each other. Note who put together the first set of laws, or "commandments", NOT that those specific commandments are completely relevant to today. We have the New Testament for that.



2.Nor should it have any other reason to assume otherwise. What happens after we die is BEYOND what can be measured or observed. Not that you should believe that something does happen, just because it can't be proven otherwise, but why the heck wouldn't you if such an afterlife is offered as a free gift? Do you pay anything for a gift? No, it is free!

3.I genuinely feel sorry for your perspective on mankind's existence. To say that we are nothing special is like saying we've never had control over our environment. Of course we are special! If dolphins are so dang smart, where the !&$% are their civilizations, governments, and technologies?

4.If you see a human as nothing but a silly little "advanced" self sustaining chemical reaction, then how the $&%* do you explain the brain? If we are such an "advanced" chemical reaction, how the $*% did we evolve? Nature NEVER improves itself. It's strain to reach entropy will only ever destroy, hide, and hinder chemical processes and progresses. "Advancement" never comes without an external influence.



5.They didn't used to. We've allowed our definition of marriage to change, lowering our standards and settling for what is "good enough". I'll tell you what, whatever you do, DO NOT ever settle for someone in a relationship. Someone ALWAYS gets hurt in the long run. I didn't say, 50% of the time something goes wrong, I said someone WILL get hurt. NEVER settle. But beyond marital advice, (which I'm not full of), you need to take a step back and look at what being happy really is. Find out what real JOY really looks like, because I can tell you that MANY people in MANY places of the world have NEVER experienced true JOY. I would say a large number of those people are in the USA.


I would say:

Accept the universe, don't try to make it bigger than God.

6.Sorry if you feel like I've just "attacked" your post, (because I have). Just know that I do know EXACTLY what you mean, and I hear it all the time. I'm just posting to challenge your views, and make you think about a few things. From my perspective, (The born- again Christian) life is the most joy filled experience someone can have.

7.So when I read posts that try to cheapen who we are as humans, being described as chemical reactions, as a body with no soul, with no sense of it's own AWARENESS (we are aware of our life, and we are aware of our awareness), its makes me sad. It truly does. I just wonder how such a perspective allows for anyone to live life happily at all! I'm not saying you aren't happy, but understand that I know nothing happier than the perspective I have now.

*Note: I have not been a Christian my entire life.

I hope you can reconsider a few things, cause I just want you to know that there's more happiness to this world than some are willing to see!

-Tyler
1.Morals are not absolute. Why are your morals any superior to my morals? Morals are human constructs designed to decrease the chance of death at the hands of other humans and increase the rate of reproduction and progress.

2.LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
There is no afterlife. We can measure and observe the dead body. Nothing leaves it besides residual body heat and eventually the flesh after death. There is no reason to believe in a "soul". We have a decent understanding of how the brain works, and there's no magic smoke that keeps it ticking. The stupidest mistake a human can make is assuming they are any more complex than a rat or a star system.

3.Seriously? I can see why you buy christianity, you think humans are above any other creature. We are a self sustaining chemical reaction, which through some inevitable processes developed the ability to terraform its environment through precise application of kinetic force. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm the one free of the burden of the lies you've been put under.

4.What the hell are you talking about? The brain came about through billions of years of said chemical reaction developing protein chains that managed other processes. Cells have nuclei that can perform basic functions like digestion and DNA transcription, and it's pretty clear how those came about....

5.Erm... christianity is basically peddling the idea of settling with your marriage. For christians, NOT getting married and having kids is a bad thing


6.That's what this thread is for

7.Awareness is a part of our chemical reaction. Once you can see that, you'll see the true beauty of the human body. The amazing thing is that we became this way independent of any god, through a complex form of trial and error. Once you can realize the fact that everything we do is a result of our chemistry, you will see the world in a whole new way. And believe me, I'm perfectly happy as a person knowing there is no greater purpose, simply because I'm built to be happy

As charlie said, humans are like wafers of carved silicon, two dopants come together to make a machine that for all we know is capable of sentience.

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Old 07-24-2010, 01:47 AM #1556
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I haven't had much to say in this thread, and about all I really have to say about ALL organized religion is this one sentence:

I truly believe that organized religion itself presents as big a threat to the world as a collision with another planet.

I don't believe in organized religion, but personal faith in a higher power (whatever that means to you) is another thing altogether.
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Old 07-24-2010, 02:03 AM #1557
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

hmm have to agree with others here, meatballs post is based on opinion, misinformation and assumptions. for example, we dont know that what happens after death isnt measurable or observable. they could find out ghosts exist, as an imprint of electromagnetic brain activity on the surroundings that reasonate occasionaly to our own minds, producing visions. just an example.
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Old 07-24-2010, 03:36 AM #1558
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

ossumguywill:

Thanks for at least reading what I had to say to you. By your reply, it's obvious that your perception of what the Christian faith really is, is still skewed. There's nothing I can do about that, but it means something to me, that you've considered what I said... for maybe a second. Its good to see that you've come to some of your conclusions completely on your own. But consider yourself uninformed about the Christian faith, the media from your links doesn't describe it correctly, nor will they ever do so. But I appreciate your listening to me. Like I said, I'm not here to debate since debating distracts from what is really important. And we all know what that is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
I haven't had much to say in this thread, and about all I really have to say about ALL organized religion is this one sentence:

I truly believe that organized religion itself presents as big a threat to the world as a collision with another planet.

I don't believe in organized religion, but personal faith in a higher power (whatever that means to you) is another thing altogether.
ElektroFreak, have I ever told you how much I appreciate you?

I'm glad to see someone recognizing the difference between religion and a faith in something entirely different.

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Originally Posted by Fonduman View Post
hmm have to agree with others here, meatballs post is based on opinion, misinformation and assumptions. for example, we dont know that what happens after death isnt measurable or observable. they could find out ghosts exist, as an imprint of electromagnetic brain activity on the surroundings that reasonate occasionaly to our own minds, producing visions. just an example.
Sorry Fonduman, I wasn't trying to respond to anything you had said. I'm sorry if I came across that way. But if you'd like to chit chat a bit about where my opinions, misinformation, and assumptions come from, I'd be open for conversation, but not debate. Please learn to capitalize your sentences a bit, I don't know about anyone else, but reading your posts is like reading a giant run on sentence. Thanks Fonduman! I'd appreciate it!

Have you seen what happens after death lately? I haven't...
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Old 07-24-2010, 04:14 AM #1559
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
ossumguywill:

Thanks for at least reading what I had to say to you. By your reply, it's obvious that your perception of what the Christian faith really is, is still skewed. There's nothing I can do about that, but it means something to me, that you've considered what I said... for maybe a second. Its good to see that you've come to some of your conclusions completely on your own. But consider yourself uninformed about the Christian faith, the media from your links doesn't describe it correctly, nor will they ever do so. But I appreciate your listening to me. Like I said, I'm not here to debate since debating distracts from what is really important. And we all know what that is!

Have you seen what happens after death lately? I haven't...
I wasn't trying to say anything about the christian faith... I simply gave you irrefutable numbers about christians themselves (which may demonstrate some about the faith itself, but it's up to your interpretation). I also have numbers that christians have the highest number of kids out of wedlock, most abortions, etc, and to me that demonstrates that most don't take their religion seriously but how you interpret it is in the mind of the beholder.

Also, I've seen what happens after death.... skeletonization, and sometimes mineralization if you're lucky

Also, why does everyone keep saying they want to stop debating? the ability to debate is a good skill to have, and it's what this thread is for

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Old 07-24-2010, 04:53 AM #1560
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Lol yeah, for you this thread is about debating. But when trying to explain my faith, debate does nothing but prove who can argue who out of what. It proves who is better at debating, even if the better debater is wrong. (whether they know it or not) If you want to TALK about this, a conversation is MUCH more productive. Do you have skype?

Again, if you saw nothing of post #1535, then I'll need to remind you that its NOT about what you DO here in life. Man cannot DO anything to save himself. If man could be 'good' enough here on Earth, to earn his way to heaven, then there would've been no reason for Jesus to come down from his throne, to like... DIE for us. Actions have nothing to do with it!

"It is by faith alone, and not of yourselves..."

Christians are no better then someone without the faith. They simply admit that they're messed up, and decide to make a life change. Unfortunately, when Christians mess up people take notice. When your numbers come rolling in, they do not account for the couples that break up before marriage, and the pregnancies that were prevented from happening in the first place. Things such as contraceptives are discouraged in some denominations.
You also MUST MUST MUST consider what are called, "False Converts".

Simple definition: Someone who claims "Jesus" with their mouth, and denies him
by their actions. If someone is REALLY in the faith, you would see it, you would notice it. How many "falso converts" are out there? Lol how about over half of the "Christians" at my high school! The single GREATEST cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who claim Jesus with their LIPS, and DENY him with their lifestyle. THAT'S world an unbelieving world, simply finds, unbelievable. Believe me, I see the numbers too!
Not going to lie, last couple months in my church were kind of rough. An associate pastor was discovered to be having an affair with someone in the church. No jokes about this please. Seriously though, it was a terrible thing to happen. But it's what people do. People in town took more notice of this, than they paid attention to the fact that the mayors daughter got an abortion, and that the city was trying to lay off about 150 workers.. this all happened in the same week. The point is, is that just because a pastor from a church just did something that humans tend to do, the city spread more rumors about it, than they did about the mayor or the council members, all because "Oh look! Christians! They're messing everything up again! Look at what hypocrites they are!"

Don't expect anything but human behavior from a Christian.
No one but those outside the church said otherwise.

You've seen yourself decompose? That's silly, no you didn't! :P

You've never died have you? You have no reason to doubt what does or doesn't happen after you die. I, happen to have lots of reason to believe that something DOES happen to every single human that passes through here. But that's just me, just a crazy Bible believing, gun wielding Jesus freak!

@drumz0rz: Repping people for anything in the "other" section of the forum is a no- no. Thanks!
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Old 07-24-2010, 05:23 AM #1561
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That's all that I'm saying! A sh*tload of christians say they follow jesus but then act worse (by christian standards) than most atheists/agnostics! And personally I don't care all that much about the mayor's daughter getting an abortion, and the laying off of workers is inevitable (sadly) but that pastor thing sucks! That can't be good for morale...

Also, fun story, this girl that I sort of know (friend of a friend of a friend type thing) got pregnant at age 15. She got an abortion, with the consent of her parents, but recently her dad became more of a hardcore christian. The idiot guilted her in to getting pregnant a SECOND time at age 17, this time ON PURPOSE to "make up" for the fact that she got an abortion before. That's just a sickening example of religious extremism IMO, so all I have to say to that is

extreme facepalm.
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Old 07-24-2010, 05:56 AM #1562
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
That's all that I'm saying! A sh*tload of christians say they follow jesus but then act worse (by christian standards) than most atheists/agnostics! And personally I don't care all that much about the mayor's daughter getting an abortion, and the laying off of workers is inevitable (sadly) but that pastor thing sucks! That can't be good for morale...

Also, fun story, this girl that I sort of know (friend of a friend of a friend type thing) got pregnant at age 15. She got an abortion, with the consent of her parents, but recently her dad became more of a hardcore christian. The idiot guilted her in to getting pregnant a SECOND time at age 17, this time ON PURPOSE to "make up" for the fact that she got an abortion before. That's just a sickening example of religious extremism IMO, so all I have to say to that is

extreme facepalm.
YIKES! I see this as a sickening example of something... sick! The Bible would NEVER teach anything of this sort! LOL That's the dad acting on his own accord, or trying to teach her a lesson or something. But regardless, BAD parenting.

Notice, that the links you posted were about marriages, and divorces and whatnot. It's not like Christians are more responsible for murder, rape, drug abuse and stuff like that than any other group.. not that those things are much worse IMO. I hope I'm making sense..

Our community is strong however, and our church hasn't lost any members because of the affair. But believe me, its quite the betrayal. Luckily, we have had lots of support from other churches across town! Its probably been the worst thing to happen here all summer..

But yeah, when it comes to those that make the rest of us look bad, in high school, I was automatically associated with the kids who claimed to be Christian or Catholic or whatever, and would then walk around and cuss, drink, and just a bunch of stupid crap. I had to "quiet" everyone's awareness of my faith for awhile because people kept assuming that I was doing the same thing. That was the worst!

College is cool though. You can be anything in college and no one cares. You could say that you believe in rocks that talk to you, and people will just say, "Oh, that's cool."

I would just like to encourage you to not assume that Christians are any worse than anyone else. We're just people too!

EDIT: I like the facepalm!
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Old 07-24-2010, 06:02 AM #1563
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I get what you're saying about the kids in school. Every high school kid that attends catholic school that I know personally (8 or 9 kids) is drunk 50% of the time, high 40%, and at extreme risk of contracting an STD the other 10% of the time. I don't know a single kid that goes to catholic school that is smart or responsible, and I'm sure they're just giving a bad image to everyone else.
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Old 07-24-2010, 06:13 AM #1564
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Kearney's private Catholic school which is a 4th of the size of the public school, has more bomb threats, and fights every year than the public high school and they're increasing! Public school is the way to go IMO!
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Old 07-24-2010, 06:35 AM #1565
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Agreed-for some reason I can't fathom, parents who can afford to hire body guards for their children sometimes choose to send them to a mediocre inner-city catholic boarding school Sorry, but if I can afford a bodyguard my kid is going to exeter or something
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:22 AM #1566
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

i wasnt replying to you replying to something i said, i was just following along and taking a side. i will capitalise when i want to, this is an online forum not a letter to the queen lol
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Old 07-24-2010, 11:03 PM #1567
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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i wasnt replying to you replying to something i said, i was just following along and taking a side. i will capitalise when i want to, this is an online forum not a letter to the queen lol
who was that addressed to?
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Old 07-25-2010, 12:03 AM #1568
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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who was that addressed to?
Quote:
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Sorry Fonduman, I wasn't trying to respond to anything you had said. I'm sorry if I came across that way. But if you'd like to chit chat a bit about where my opinions, misinformation, and assumptions come from, I'd be open for conversation, but not debate. Please learn to capitalize your sentences a bit, I don't know about anyone else, but reading your posts is like reading a giant run on sentence. Thanks Fonduman! I'd appreciate it!

Have you seen what happens after death lately? I haven't...
And btw, have you seen me lately? no? then i must not exist. but maybe you can interpret the effects i cause as sign of my existance?
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