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Old 07-23-2010, 12:10 AM #1537
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Part of the uncertainty principle is that no matter the initial conditions the results are unpredictable. The quantum world is random. Perhaps that equation does not describe that, but it's part of the principle.
yeah but the results could be unpredictable because we cant measure the initial conditions to infinite accuracy


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Old 07-23-2010, 12:20 AM #1538
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 07-23-2010, 12:21 AM #1539
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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yeah but the results could be unpredictable because we cant measure the initial conditions to infinite accuracy
True as well... good point, I hadn't though of that! However I think they are unpredictable even with infinite accuracy.
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:01 AM #1540
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

more like infiniite inaccuracy... no matter how strong a computer is. it can't predict and trace and simulate the big bang and predict how everything plays out after... you are fogetting about the human element.

@ fondu... i know exactly where you are coming from.. IRELAND

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Old 07-23-2010, 02:09 AM #1541
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The human element? We are 100% predictable (barring quantum mechanics, of course ). We're made of atoms, so we behave predictably like other things made out of atoms.
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Old 07-23-2010, 04:21 AM #1542
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Google it, is a fact that marriage and religion are the top two things that make people happy. But I didn't say the world was happy. No no, life sucks and then you die.

I agree with this quote:
"It is better to accept the universe for the way it is, however unsettling, than to persist in delusion."

I don't need religion to answer the unanswerable questions for me.

The Heisenberg uncertainty principle describes the difficulty in measuring quantum mechanical energies of particles. But it doesn't definitively say that at a fundamental level everything is random. As you say we haven't figured it all out yet, the universe may be more complex than we could have ever imagined.

My knowledge of quantum mechanics stems as far as your typical engineering physics classes in college. So I won't say I'm an expert. I took Phys 253 like two years ago and it's all a bit shady. I could be wrong nor do I claim to be right. I do believe in a destiny. But don't confuse it with that "well if it's my time, it's my time" or "I'm destine to be a millionaire so I can just sit around on my ass and it'll happen" crap, no, not that kind of destiny.

Imagine a jar of marbles on a table. You knock the jar over. The jar of marbles hits the floor (big bang) and all the marbles begin diverging across the floor. If you knew the exact momentum and mass and position of the marbles at the time then the jar hit the floor you could technically determine the position, velocity, and momentum of all the marble at any given moment after the crash, furthermore there is a UNIQUE destiny that all the marbles have, nothing can change that. I'd like to thing that the universe is the same way. Our planet is a marble rolling across the floor.

Also time travel is impossible? Why you ask? Well, because my future self has not come back in time and given me a box of cheapo 473nm lasers he(I) bought on the future eBay for 5 bucks a pop, to sell to all of you in the present for big bucks and make some major bone!

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Old 07-23-2010, 04:26 AM #1543
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Erm... it seems hard to quantify the fact that religion and marriage make people the most happy, and I've seen data suggesting that marriage is one of the leading causes of abuse and depression (among certain demographics (like catholic christians), that is)
so I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

And when I explicitly asked my physics teacher, "If I was infinitely wise about the past and present, could I tell the future?" He said absolutely not.... I trust him lol, he was pretty smart.
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:27 PM #1544
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I understand that for most, religion is about self improvement. I also understand why people in desperate times cling to their religion. However the religious principals off which the aim to better themselves, aren't really based off of the existance of god(s) but the teachings and principals of the organized religions. Simply believing there is a creator doesn't help you with your life in any way except to show that you aren't ready to accept what science points to.

It's funny you mention Carl Sagan, he himself was Agnostic because in his opinion he didn't have enough information to prove there was no such thing as the divine. I of course disagree with him, to me, religion is no more than an unfounded challenge by someone else. Like if someone were to demand for me to disprove without a shadow of a doubt that they were thinking of the number 3. How could I do that? It's impossible. Ok, maybe that's a bad example. But my point is, why should I have to prove it doesn't exist, it should require proof that it does exist, not the other way around.

But then you open a whole big can of worms, and what bothers me about theists. They will almost aways tell you that you don't need to prove the existance of god, you just need to have faith. When you argue against something, and ask for proof to their side of the arguement, they will often revert back to simply "because god made it that way". That's a convenient world view.

"To doubt everything or believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the need for thought" ~henri poincare

Back to organized religion. I truely do believe, that when religions were created by man, they were meant as a positive thing, to better the world and help people better themselves. I really do believe that religion had good intentions. Remember, here I'm stripping organized religion from the belief in a divinity. While they are obviously very related, they are very distinct. Problem is, religion holds immense power over its followers. Powers that can, and always are abused. I'm sure christianity had the right idea in mind, when each branch was formed, it was often because they were unhappy with the human leadership and human direction of the previous religion.

While I believe that religions were a good thing when they started, most have devolved into a corrupt mess which i wish to distance myself from greatly. I was born into a Catholic family. I went through sunday school, and was confirmed. From a young age I realized it's all BS. I shouldn't need the approval of a bunch of old men in silly gowns. I look at stories such as priests raping little boys (why are they always gay?) and how the system tries to cover it up. How can I be associated with that? And that's just the latest example. What about the Crusades? When for no reason at all, Christians killed thousands of Muslims.

I hate that different religions can't co-exist. Why must people insist on making others change their beliefs to match theirs? I thought the point of religion was self improvement. So why preach to others? Because you want others to share in your revelations, ok I get that. But don't shove it down my throat. I have decided that I don't ever want to be a part of a religion. So stop trying to convince me otherwise. Why don't people simply preach to those who will listen? I'm sure that's how it starts out. But then the corruption arises. People realize that others will do what they say. They like the power, they want more of it. So they go out as missionaries. Oh god, missionaries are the bane of my existance. People who think they are helping others by spreading their corrupt plague across the land.

Most christians are unwaivering in their faith. This is a problem to me. In Islam, the Qur'an is more of a story than an encyclopedia. It is meant to be interpreted, and applied to modern times. In it's boiled down principals you are supposed to question things, in an attempt to always improve. But of course that religion too has devolved from corruption (I've taken senior level college courses on Islam). But back to Christianity. I don't mean to generalize, and to stereotype, and I know this isn't true of all, even most christians. But there are a loud vocal minority out there ruining it for the rest of the religion, because of which, I keep myself as far from it as possible.

Creation. Science has proven this to be impossible. Evolution is a theory, but one so grounded in science, it's basically fact, it's just, impossible to prove as fact becuase we can't go back in time and point and say look! see, we were right! Although in a sense we do that all the time when we analyze fossils and other artifacts from the past. We can even look at the workings of the present to support the theory. So the fact that there are creationists bothers me. They're basically people who refuse to look at the fact, and cling to an unfounded religious explanation. To me thats just ignorance.

Homo***uality. Why is this an issue at all? I thought religion was about self improvement. How is gay bashing improving yourself? How does two gay men marrying each other effect you at all? People claim it'll erode the sanctity of marriage. Seriously? I thought the whole point of marriage was to show your committed bond to someone you love. Why can't two men love each other? You might not understand it, but that doesn't mean it's not just as genuine as your marriage. People fear that if it is legalized, men will marry other men and it'll be chaos in the streets. How do you figure? So it's fine for a man to go to vegas and marry a stripper just to divorce her in a week, but not fine for two men, or two women who love each other deeply, and care for each other to marry. Then just think of all the legal benefits, tax breaks and things afforded to married couples that gays cannot get. How is that fair?

And these kinds of things have existed in religion forever. There are passages in the bible saying to stone your wife if she steps out of line. How does that have anything to do with self improvement?

And my final issue, is blind faith. People who will do the above preaching and mission work for a faith they don't understand. I believe that for someone to declare they are of a certain religion, they should have to first demonstrate a deep and thorough knowledge of the religion, it's history and it's beliefs. I have a friend, she's a die hard catholic and she's a creationist. I asked her why she was a creationist, her answer "I'm Catholic so I'm obviously a creationist". I guess she missed the memo Pope John Paul II sent out saying that evolution was most correct. Pretty big thing to miss since she bases her whole world view off it. Unfortunately its the blind believers, the ones who follow without asking questions that do the most preaching. They're the ones you see on TV. No, not the guy up on stage, he's just in it for the money and the power (of which he sure gets a lot). All those people in his audience dancing around, crying and "speaking in tongues". Those are the people bringing relgion down. And my biggest pet peeve. Christians who bash Muslims and "allah". You do realize that Allah, is the same diety as the Christian god. Exactly the same. Same thing with the Jews. When someone makes hugely ignorant comments about Islam, they instantly lose all credibilty, and respect in my mind. Muslims aren't terrorists, and they're not that different from christians.

I don't get why christians are so hung up on christ. Sure some of his teachings were very good, and great for that whole "self improvement" thing. But why must he be the "be all end all"? Muhammad also said some great things. And so did many others after him. In Chrisitanity, the first thing you must do is declare your allegance with them. "Jesus died for your sins" I get told all the time. Woop-de-doo! A bunch of lab rats also died so that they could make Advil. I guess they all laid down their lives for my headache, eh? It's all corruption and power. You need to declare yourself a christian so that they can control you. Why can't you just be open minded, take the best from all worlds? Why do you have to lock yourself into a corrupt establishment just to improve yourself?

One last note. I encourage people to go out and learn more about smaller religions. Branch outside of the big three, it's much less corrupt, and you'll find some really interesting stuff.

In his noodly apendages we pray, ramen.

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Old 07-23-2010, 03:37 PM #1545
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
The human element? We are 100% predictable (barring quantum mechanics, of course ). We're made of atoms, so we behave predictably like other things made out of atoms.
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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
Erm... it seems hard to quantify the fact that religion and marriage make people the most happy, and I've seen data suggesting that marriage is one of the leading causes of abuse and depression (among certain demographics (like catholic christians), that is)
so I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

And when I explicitly asked my physics teacher, "If I was infinitely wise about the past and present, could I tell the future?" He said absolutely not.... I trust him lol, he was pretty smart.

i can't tell if you're being sarcastic?
and if you are gonna start throwing around "studies" and stats then it will help your argument if you give a link to where you read it.

michael
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Old 07-23-2010, 04:58 PM #1546
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Imagine a jar of marbles on a table. You knock the jar over. The jar of marbles hits the floor (big bang) and all the marbles begin diverging across the floor. If you knew the exact momentum and mass and position of the marbles at the time then the jar hit the floor you could technically determine the position, velocity, and momentum of all the marble at any given moment after the crash, furthermore there is a UNIQUE destiny that all the marbles have, nothing can change that. I'd like to thing that the universe is the same way. Our planet is a marble rolling across the floor.
I agree with you. Our planet has a traceable past, and a theoretically calculatable future. If you had all the measurements, you could rewind time, or fast forward it. If you knew the trajectory of every object that'll ever be within 100MM light years of earth, including new objects when come up, you could forsee collisions, the death of the sun, the rebirth of a new star from it's ashes, the cycle for billions more years until we get sucked into the black hole in the middle of the galaxy (or something else, who knows).

But that's out planet. That's an inanimate body following very specific and constant physical laws. Living things on the other hand, react to a huge number more variables. Many of which are simply impossible to predict. Humans have an exceptionally well developed brain. Because of that, we have our own sense of identity. Instead of just reacting to a stimulus automatically, we analyze it and determine the best course of action. Everyone is different.

While there are studies showing how people think, and there's huge fields in psychology and NLP, the fact is, people can be irrational. I have a good life, nothing to complain about, but if I wanted, for no reason I could swerve into oncoming traffic and die. I won't, but I could. Any time I wanted. That sort of thing can't be measured or quantified.

Living creatures on an individual basis don't have a destiny. Unlike celestial bodies, you can't analyze a creatures past and be able to accurately predict the future. Sure you may be generally close, I go to work in the same desk every day, but you can't nail any details really. The further out you go the more impossible it is to predict.
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:26 PM #1547
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Living creatures on an individual basis don't have a destiny. Unlike celestial bodies, you can't analyze a creatures past and be able to accurately predict the future. Sure you may be generally close, I go to work in the same desk every day, but you can't nail any details really. The further out you go the more impossible it is to predict.
well you can't even get "generally close" because of your statement of humans having developed brains.

example.... a perfectly normal human, has life by the balls, lots of family, great job.... then booom they kill them self.

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Old 07-23-2010, 07:56 PM #1548
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by drumz0rz View Post
In Chrisitanity, the first thing you must do is declare your allegance with them. "Jesus died for your sins" I get told all the time. Woop-de-doo! A bunch of lab rats also died so that they could make Advil. I guess they all laid down their lives for my headache, eh? It's all corruption and power.
That was literally one of the funniest things I've ever read on this form. Great analogy!

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But that's out planet. That's an inanimate body following very specific and constant physical laws. Living things on the other hand, react to a huge number more variables. Many of which are simply impossible to predict. Humans have an exceptionally well developed brain. Because of that, we have our own sense of identity. Instead of just reacting to a stimulus automatically, we analyze it and determine the best course of action. Everyone is different.
Yes I get your argument that life is different than a bunch of rocks floating through space. If the universe was lifeless then the argument might be more acceptable. But really how is life any different? At a fundamental level we all are made up of the same fundamental particles. Just because an animal can reason and a rock cannot doesn't mean that they both will not react to outside stimuli accordingly.

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While there are studies showing how people think, and there's huge fields in psychology and NLP, the fact is, people can be irrational. I have a good life, nothing to complain about, but if I wanted, for no reason I could swerve into oncoming traffic and die. I won't, but I could. Any time I wanted. That sort of thing can't be measured or quantified.
But you wont. You see at every single given instance of time we all make one decision, ONE. If all of our decisions at a fundamental level can be random and made without outside stimuli then you may likely walk in front of oncoming traffic. Our very ability to reason IS life acting out a unique path based on given circumstances. One marble starts rolling because another bumped into it. I started writing this because of what you posted. It's the fact that life and thought are so immensely complicated that people think that they can act outside of natural progression. And by extension predicting peoples actions and decisions, even based on an omnipotent knowledge of the past, would be unimaginably difficult to do; essentially impossible. But theoretically it can be done.

Consider this argument. If indeed we are able to make decisions randomly then for every possible action a given person could make at a given time there must be an infinite of parallel realities that "could have been". Throughout history, we've fallowed one specific winding path down human decisions. If we can act randomly outside of a stimuli then why is our history seemingly rational and orderly. Well you'll say that only rational decisions will be made by people who can reason. But not all life can reason. Where is the cut off. At what point do we stop acting like marbles? Where is the boundary between irrational and rational? Rational people can act irrationally. I could punch through my laptop screen right now, or fling my chair out the window, or continue typing this response. Where is the cut off point in which I will decide not to do something because it isn't rational? There are literally an infinite number of actions I could do right now. BUT.... I'm only doing one... the one dictated by natural progression. I my opinion, and know that this is all just my theory on the subject and I don't claim to be right, even with our complex minds we still act like marbles. I will make a unique decision based on what I interact with, and what I interact with, whether alive or inanimate, will also act in response to it's environment. It can all be traced back, and by extension, forward too.

-Tony
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:49 PM #1549
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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1.WHAT? Religion results in millions of lynchings and lots of war... any "good" morals come from being raised correctly.
Yeah, if you count the lynchings that happen TO the "religious".
Morals come from being raised correctly?

Would you be able to show what "being raised correctly" looks like?
Everyone would give a different answer here. The Bible is full of the teachings that have kept people from eating each other, sacrificing each other, and worshipping each other. Note who put together the first set of laws, or "commandments", NOT that those specific commandments are completely relevant to today. We have the New Testament for that.

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2.We rot in the ground... science has no reason to assume otherwise. We are not special, we are advanced self-sustaining chemical reactions.
Nor should it have any other reason to assume otherwise. What happens after we die is BEYOND what can be measured or observed. Not that you should believe that something does happen, just because it can't be proven otherwise, but why the heck wouldn't you if such an afterlife is offered as a free gift? Do you pay anything for a gift? No, it is free!

I genuinely feel sorry for your perspective on mankind's existence. To say that we are nothing special is like saying we've never had control over our environment. Of course we are special! If dolphins are so dang smart, where the !&$% are their civilizations, governments, and technologies?

If you see a human as nothing but a silly little "advanced" self sustaining chemical reaction, then how the $&%* do you explain the brain? If we are such an "advanced" chemical reaction, how the $*% did we evolve? Nature NEVER improves itself. It's strain to reach entropy will only ever destroy, hide, and hinder chemical processes and progresses. "Advancement" never comes without an external influence.

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3.WHAAAT? Like half of marriages end in divorce and many polls suggest a large number of couple wish they had never married. On top of that, religion doesn't make all that many people happy.... the things that result in the biggest increase of dopamine are fatty foods, ***, and (in the short term), drugs. Not to say the first and last are good things, of course
They didn't used to. We've allowed our definition of marriage to change, lowering our standards and settling for what is "good enough". I'll tell you what, whatever you do, DO NOT ever settle for someone in a relationship. Someone ALWAYS gets hurt in the long run. I didn't say, 50% of the time something goes wrong, I said someone WILL get hurt. NEVER settle. But beyond marital advice, (which I'm not full of), you need to take a step back and look at what being happy really is. Find out what real JOY really looks like, because I can tell you that MANY people in MANY places of the world have NEVER experienced true JOY. I would say a large number of those people are in the USA.

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4.Exactly... religion does not follow this quote. Accept the universe, don't try and make it better with god.
I would say:

Accept the universe, don't try to make it bigger than God.

Sorry if you feel like I've just "attacked" your post, (because I have). Just know that I do know EXACTLY what you mean, and I hear it all the time. I'm just posting to challenge your views, and make you think about a few things. From my perspective, (The born- again Christian) life is the most joy filled experience someone can have.

So when I read posts that try to cheapen who we are as humans, being described as chemical reactions, as a body with no soul, with no sense of it's own AWARENESS (we are aware of our life, and we are aware of our awareness), its makes me sad. It truly does. I just wonder how such a perspective allows for anyone to live life happily at all! I'm not saying you aren't happy, but understand that I know nothing happier than the perspective I have now.

*Note: I have not been a Christian my entire life.

I hope you can reconsider a few things, cause I just want you to know that there's more happiness to this world than some are willing to see!

-Tyler
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:32 PM #1550
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Tony, in your last example, that point is the present. What is the present? It defines now, but what is now? It's always passing, yet it's always now. The present in infinitely small, as you can keep slicing time shorter and shorter, getting closer and closer to the present, but you can never get there. Yet you're always there. It's a pretty sweet paradox.

Yes, every second there an an infinite amount of possible outcomes yet we have been following this one. I could have not responded. That would have been a completely different path. We've all be on the same universe, we always have. But will we always be? Could there be an infinite number of universes out there each representing what would happen if 1 single thing was different? One that accounts for every possible variable in the entire universe. In one, as I'm typing this, my fingers go through the netbook, in another, I just suddenly exploded for no reason. Can that be? Well, people with PhD's in this kind of stuff reason it plausable, so I'll trust them.

Logically it makes more sense than that we all have a specific destiny. The past can be analyzed, and measured, the present can be felt, lived, expirienced, and the future can only be speculated upon. Nothing is certain.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:45 PM #1551
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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marriage and religion are the top two things that make people happy.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:13 PM #1552
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

sounds more like people say it makes you happy because its what they want to believe will fill their empty lives

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Tony, in your last example, that point is the present. What is the present? It defines now, but what is now? It's always passing, yet it's always now. The present in infinitely small, as you can keep slicing time shorter and shorter, getting closer and closer to the present, but you can never get there. Yet you're always there. It's a pretty sweet paradox.
it is like a thin layer of oil, ever sinking through the sea of time...

now i just need to modify that metaphor to an immiscible liquid heavier than water.
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